What market are breeders catering to? [message #2513901]
Thu, 22 December 2011 00:52
Spottyzebra Messages: 3839 Registered: January 2007 Location: TADARC
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Amateur or Professional?[ 39 vote(s) ]
1.
Amateur
27 / 69%
2.
Professional?
6 / 15%
3.
Neither
6 / 15%
I was just reading on another forum about how some people feel that there is a much bigger market for amateur riders than professional riders. By this they classified an amateur rider as an everyday rider who may or not compete but wants a good sane safe but competitive all rounder type horse. Professional's were people who are ultra competitive and compete, or aim to compete, at top levels and in the particular case mentioned ride top moving Warmbloods. So out of curiosity I thought I'd put this poll on here to see what the majority of riders class themselves as.
country.cowgirl Messages: 4082 Registered: March 2008 Location: Australia
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I was always under the impression amateur meant you received no money but professional did - REGARDLESS of the level you are competing at...
I know a lady that has a horse business in which she buys, trains (well...), gets them out and turns them over for a handsome profit, I am currently competing at the same level as her, but I am not making a profit out of my horse (actually quiet the opposite!) whereas she is, under a registered business and all...
To say I am not competitive is a lie, I have high expectations no seriously I am competitive, I just went and bought a new mount for the new season to do better and get to that next level, and I know a lot of other riders in the same boat, there are tonnes of riders out there that are competitive and are moving up the grades, some slower than others, but you only have to attend an event to see how many riders are there...
and even 'amateurs' are spending a lot of money on their mounts, their gear and their entries, just because they are amateur doesn't mean they are still learning to canter and collect, amateurs are still riding at a fair level and still require a rather nice mount and are willing to pay - I know amateurs with 12-18k mounts... maybe not much to a professional like 120k yearling, but I wonder what the average purchase price people on here spent on their last mount??
and what level becomes 'high' level
olympics for dressage?
win a royal for hacks?
where is that line between 'competes low level' 'competes high level' ??
As for breeding, how many people do you see at your local show? how many Australians are riding at the olympics?
I dare say if breeding for the needs within our own country the 'amateur' market is a hell of a lot bigger! with riders more reluctant, or not financially able to search outside of Australian shores for a suitable mount, whereas professional have that support - inc. financially to look internationally for the suitable mount...
Why breed big moving, 'showy' WBs worth $thousands, when the majority of riders a) can't ride the movement, b) aren't willing to pay the price-tag...and not to mention the temperament some of these horses come with... - Hell don't we all want to own Renegade Z, wonder how many of us would be able to handle him on the ground and under saddle??
or What would I feed it? 1 scoop or 2?
is it appropriate to paddock next to or with my mare?
his an electric fence away from my mare, what should I do?
How do I achieve contact?
My horse dumped me because I jammed him up, what do I do?
I shall digress but you get the idea of why 'professional' horses would be ruined under 'amateur care'
you have to cater for the majority of riders are asking for, if people want quiet all-rounders than breed them, you'll get a bit better return supply-demand curve anyone?
Same as the TB industry really - a lot are breeding horses for the local races, not all studs are breeding for the Melbourne cup winner, might be hoping they get lucky but the quality of mares and stallions they have access tGroovy Baby!t produce top local racers, but are going to do nothing on the international stage - again number of local vs. 'big' races in Australia?
Doesn't mean we are supporting BYB, dodgey breeding or breeding everything with a vagina, some nice child hack ponies are just as well breed as some of the top horses, but they are breed for a need - quiet, child hack - movement (but not too big), looks, temperament to suit the rider...
There is nothing 'wrong' with breeding for the amateur market IMO not everyone will be able to ride or afford a horse breed specifically for the 'professional market'
I've always found that reasoning odd, it's like the many mini breeders just going "Oh I'm just breeding pets."
My aim as a breeder is to produce a halter champion. I back that up by also aiming for a horse with build and movement to work in harness. But not every foal I produce will have what it takes to win in the ring and those that don't will go on to pet homes, harness homes, performance homes.
Same with a warmblood breeder. Not all those foals will make it to the Olympics, and not all the others will compete at high levels. You don't need to breed "for the average rider."
I've always felt breeding should be breeding for improvement, not just for the sake of producing more, and by that I don't mean they have to be pure animals with blue blood but they should be sound, well put together, good natured and have SOMTHING that is desirable to pass down onto a foal. With the expenses of breeding and training why breed for anything less?"There is just as much horse sense as ever, but the horses have most of it."
zilla Messages: 2843 Registered: June 2009 Location: Gerogery
Troppo. Loco. Round the twist.
Hmmmm ... I am an amatuer, but with high aspirations. Each horse I look at buying needs to be a step up from the previous horse, to further my riding skill.
Friends of mine breed ponies. Their ambition for their stud is that no matter where you look in the paddock you will be looking at a Royal Champion. They are pretty damn close to that goal too. But more than that as well their ponies have to have good tempraments, good work ehtics and be brilliant movers. Some of these ponies that get cut from the breeding programme usually get broken in to become brilliant kids ponies. They are breeding for the top level and also provide better stuff for the lower levels at the same time.
Spottyzebra Messages: 3839 Registered: January 2007 Location: TADARC
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CC I agree with your definition of amateur = broke and professional = aims to make money. I think in this case they just classified it this way to make it easier. Interesting what you said about some amateur riders paying good money as that was a point the breeder (in this case a breeder of Irish Draughts in the UK) was saying. Their point was that the horses they breed sell immediately to the average or amateur market for good prices as soon as they advertise them. They can barely keep up with demand. So therefore this got me wondering if this is the case over here too, then why (if you look in Horse Deals etc) do so many of the breeders out there seem to cater to the more elite riders with their huge moving imported WB's?
I know I have also seen some show ponies over the years that do exceptionally well in the ring but that I would never put a child near them. So I suppose that is the same thing too, as in some cases the ponies are obviously being bred first and foremost for competition ability.
It must be hard for breeders to find that balance of breeding quality animals that also have the temperament, soundness of mind and limb, & trainability that an average Joe can ride them.
I always thought that that 'amateur rider' is always looking for a draught breed x arab/thoroughbred or something light so that they get the best of both worlds without getting a constantly fixxy warmblood (JUST A GENERALISATION because most of these 'amazteurs' i know are or were looking for cross breeds...the only real straight breeds the people I KNOW were looking at were cold blooded pony breeds or native pony breeds or coloured horses. JUST MY EXAMPLES)
i think proffessionals know enough to know what breeds or what type of horse are right for the job and are probably looking at experimenting with crossing different breeds. (MY THOUGHTS)
i always thought that the market breedes are targeted towards are things like showing (breed shows), racing (both thoroughbred & standardbred), western riding (quarter horses) and Cart competitions (clydies, percherons, shires and the rest of the draught breeds)
however going against what I have just said, Purebred Friesians are making a fair mark on the dressage world, so a lot of todays friesians (I have read this somewhere) are being developed into more athletic and free moving, agile and lighter to be able to compete in dressage more efficiently. They are also developed to have more desirable traits to be mixed with another breed to create eventing horsesLots Of Spots = Domino
A Tall Horse = TH
Dream of Danger = Silver
georgia_domino wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 10:26
I always thought that that 'amateur rider' is always looking for a draught breed x arab/thoroughbred or something light so that they get the best of both worlds without getting a constantly fixxy warmblood
What is a "constantly fixxy warmblood" because I breed warmbloods and I don't know that definition.
Breeding for the "professional" market is just an excuse to say that the horse has flash movement but has been bred without thought for how reactive or difficult to ride it might be.
If a breeder puts rideability at the top of the list ABOVE flash movement then the horses should be suitable for the majority of riders with a bit of experience.
If a rider is a beginner or lacking confidence then it doesn't matter what breed the horse is they have to go for one with proven temperament and training.
georgia_domino wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 10:26
I always thought that that 'amateur rider' is always looking for a draught breed x arab/thoroughbred or something light so that they get the best of both worlds without getting a constantly fixxy warmblood
What is a "constantly fixxy warmblood" because I breed warmbloods and I don't know that definition.
Breeding for the "professional" market is just an excuse to say that the horse has flash movement but has been bred without thought for how reactive or difficult to ride it might be.
If a breeder puts rideability at the top of the list ABOVE flash movement then the horses should be suitable for the majority of riders with a bit of experience.
If a rider is a beginner or lacking confidence then it doesn't matter what breed the horse is they have to go for one with proven temperament and training.
yep my bad...twas meant to be fizzy... and it was meant to be thoroughbred (because a clydie x is a warmblood :S )...umm what i was trying to give an example of was having a clydie cross the amateur rider thinks that they can leave it in the paddock for 2 or three days without having to worry about lunging before the ride...like a thoroughbred (generalisation)
my bad Lots Of Spots = Domino
A Tall Horse = TH
Dream of Danger = Silver
Groucho Messages: 17537 Registered: September 2008
The forum drove me to drink. Remind me to thank it.
georgia_domino wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 10:42
Bats79 wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 10:34
georgia_domino wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 10:26
I always thought that that 'amateur rider' is always looking for a draught breed x arab/thoroughbred or something light so that they get the best of both worlds without getting a constantly fixxy warmblood
What is a "constantly fixxy warmblood" because I breed warmbloods and I don't know that definition.
Breeding for the "professional" market is just an excuse to say that the horse has flash movement but has been bred without thought for how reactive or difficult to ride it might be.
If a breeder puts rideability at the top of the list ABOVE flash movement then the horses should be suitable for the majority of riders with a bit of experience.
If a rider is a beginner or lacking confidence then it doesn't matter what breed the horse is they have to go for one with proven temperament and training.
yep my bad...twas meant to be fizzy... and it was meant to be thoroughbred (because a clydie x is a warmblood :S )...umm what i was trying to give an example of was having a clydie cross the amateur rider thinks that they can leave it in the paddock for 2 or three days without having to worry about lunging before the ride...like a thoroughbred (generalisation)
madsyoudork Messages: 991 Registered: February 2009 Location: LEG
Level 1 - Advanced
georgia_domino wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 10:42
Bats79 wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 10:34
georgia_domino wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 10:26
I always thought that that 'amateur rider' is always looking for a draught breed x arab/thoroughbred or something light so that they get the best of both worlds without getting a constantly fixxy warmblood
What is a "constantly fixxy warmblood" because I breed warmbloods and I don't know that definition.
Breeding for the "professional" market is just an excuse to say that the horse has flash movement but has been bred without thought for how reactive or difficult to ride it might be.
If a breeder puts rideability at the top of the list ABOVE flash movement then the horses should be suitable for the majority of riders with a bit of experience.
If a rider is a beginner or lacking confidence then it doesn't matter what breed the horse is they have to go for one with proven temperament and training.
yep my bad...twas meant to be fizzy... and it was meant to be thoroughbred (because a clydie x is a warmblood :S )...umm what i was trying to give an example of was having a clydie cross the amateur rider thinks that they can leave it in the paddock for 2 or three days without having to worry about lunging before the ride...like a thoroughbred (generalisation)
my bad
A Clydie x is NOT a warmblood!
What I don't understand is why so many people immediately think warmbloods are not rideable, especially if they have European bloodlines. Uh. Really not the case. If you know your bloodlines, and put the time and research into what you are breeding then there is no reason that you can not judiciously create a horse with athleticism enough for higher levels and 'ammy friendly' temperament and rideability.
Yes, there are bloodlines more suited to competent riders, but there are always exceptions, and the hottest, most difficult to ride horse even with extraordinary movement isn't always going to be the most talented, especially at higher levels! In fact there are bloodlines that have proven largely unsuitable for higher level dressage despite having that killer movement and heat ...
georgia_domino wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 10:42
Bats79 wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 10:34
georgia_domino wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 10:26
I always thought that that 'amateur rider' is always looking for a draught breed x arab/thoroughbred or something light so that they get the best of both worlds without getting a constantly fixxy warmblood
What is a "constantly fixxy warmblood" because I breed warmbloods and I don't know that definition.
Breeding for the "professional" market is just an excuse to say that the horse has flash movement but has been bred without thought for how reactive or difficult to ride it might be.
If a breeder puts rideability at the top of the list ABOVE flash movement then the horses should be suitable for the majority of riders with a bit of experience.
If a rider is a beginner or lacking confidence then it doesn't matter what breed the horse is they have to go for one with proven temperament and training.
yep my bad...twas meant to be fizzy... and it was meant to be thoroughbred (because a clydie x is a warmblood :S )...umm what i was trying to give an example of was having a clydie cross the amateur rider thinks that they can leave it in the paddock for 2 or three days without having to worry about lunging before the ride...like a thoroughbred (generalisation)
my bad
Whoa Nelly....
Ive missed seeing Bats head explode
im sorry guys...sorry if i have done something completely wrong feel free to tell me why a clydie cross isn't a warmblood..i was under the assumption that a cold blood cross a hot blood was a warmblood...im sorry guys Lots Of Spots = Domino
A Tall Horse = TH
Dream of Danger = Silver
Spottyzebra Messages: 3839 Registered: January 2007 Location: TADARC
Step away from the computer,
Bats79 wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 10:34
georgia_domino wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 10:26
I always thought that that 'amateur rider' is always looking for a draught breed x arab/thoroughbred or something light so that they get the best of both worlds without getting a constantly fixxy warmblood
What is a "constantly fixxy warmblood" because I breed warmbloods and I don't know that definition.
Breeding for the "professional" market is just an excuse to say that the horse has flash movement but has been bred without thought for how reactive or difficult to ride it might be.
If a breeder puts rideability at the top of the list ABOVE flash movement then the horses should be suitable for the majority of riders with a bit of experience.
If a rider is a beginner or lacking confidence then it doesn't matter what breed the horse is they have to go for one with proven temperament and training.
See thats what I think too, but yet it seems the market is flooded with flash moving horses (or horses bred to be flash moving which we all know doesn't necessarily mean that they are)? Yet they seem to sell so there are either a lot of elite or aspiring to be elite riders out there. Either that or there are a lot of riders who are seriously overestimating or being unrealistic about their capabilities.
zilla Messages: 2843 Registered: June 2009 Location: Gerogery
Troppo. Loco. Round the twist.
Generalisations are BAD in the horse world!
I look for TB's who can MOVE as an amatuer rider. Why? Because I like showing and dressage as my main disciplines, and on the odd occaision I like to go wild and do some jumping. TB's are great all around athletes, and more than one has a good brain, they are (IMO) the world's most forgiving breed (think of what they cop in the first 2-3 years!) and are adaptable like no other horses I've dealt with. A good TB who trusts it's rider will find something extra at the bottom of the tank when others are running on empty and quit. Every one of my "hot, feral, tempramental and wild" TB's have been able to be tipped out in the paddock for days and weeks and be brought back in without lunging the guts out of them to "calm them down".
I've known more clydie crosses who need constant work and lunging (and are hotter and more explosive) than I've seen TB's and WB's!
Most amatuer riders I know don't look for breed ... they look for brain ... unless it's the ones who fall for the pretty face!
georgia_domino wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 10:42
Bats79 wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 10:34
georgia_domino wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 10:26
I always thought that that 'amateur rider' is always looking for a draught breed x arab/thoroughbred or something light so that they get the best of both worlds without getting a constantly fixxy warmblood
What is a "constantly fixxy warmblood" because I breed warmbloods and I don't know that definition.
yep my bad...twas meant to be fizzy... and it was meant to be thoroughbred (because a clydie x is a warmblood :S )...umm what i was trying to give an example of was having a clydie cross the amateur rider thinks that they can leave it in the paddock for 2 or three days without having to worry about lunging before the ride...like a thoroughbred (generalisation)
my bad
Whoa Nelly....
Ive missed seeing Bats head explode
Someone might have to go around and check on Bats
Does anyone know where that cold +hot = warmblood came from?
[Updated on: Thu, 22 December 2011 11:23]
"There is just as much horse sense as ever, but the horses have most of it."
I've always found that reasoning odd, it's like the many mini breeders just going "Oh I'm just breeding pets." My aim as a breeder is to produce a halter champion. I back that up by also aiming for a horse with build and movement to work in harness. But not every foal I produce will have what it takes to win in the ring and those that don't will go on to pet homes, harness homes, performance homes. Same with a warmblood breeder. Not all those foals will make it to the Olympics, and not all the others will compete at high levels. You don't need to breed "for the average rider."
I've always felt breeding should be breeding for improvement, not just for the sake of producing more, and by that I don't mean they have to be pure animals with blue blood but they should be sound, well put together, good natured and have SOMTHING that is desirable to pass down onto a foal. With the expenses of breeding and training why breed for anything less?
I think these two ideas are sometimes considered mutually exclusive by breeders (and sometimes ARE) which is where the problem arises. I personally subscribe to Bats' idea that sound temperament should be on a par with build/confo and flashy/winning movement should be secondary to these... BUT, when the choice comes up between a 'not so flashy'/plain jane but correct horse with an excellent temperament and a really flashy and correct horse with an unsuitable temperament, some breeders DO choose the flashy individual because THEY can handle it (and it will help them win shows for breeders so inclined) and don't think through the impacts of that decision on the owners of the offspring which are rehomed as pets/everyday mounts - which is where you end up with unsuitable but 'desirable' animals being produced.
For example - I know in the dog world at least, it's VERY common for show breeders to prefer sharp/strong/overly bold dogs (and therefore lines) because of their 'ring presence' - the offspring of these dogs DO NOT generally make good pets for the average home, yet we are constantly told by some circles that everyone should be buying the offshoots from show animal breeding programs - until the requirements for show animals become much more closely aligned with the requirements for pet animals (as they generally are with cats), this will simply never be the case.
For example - I know in the dog world at least, it's VERY common for show breeders to prefer sharp/strong/overly bold dogs (and therefore lines) because of their 'ring presence' - the offspring of these dogs DO NOT generally make good pets for the average home, yet we are constantly told by some circles that everyone should be buying the offshoots from show animal breeding programs - until the requirements for show animals become much more closely aligned with the requirements for pet animals (as they generally are with cats), this will simply never be the case.
Whoa there just a minute!!!! I've been showing dogs since 1972 (yes, 39 YEARS) and in all that time, I've NEVER seen or heard of that happening. Temperament is of PRIME importance. With my breeds in particular, the main aim of breeding is to preserve the very people-oriented temperament and conformation of two quite ancient breeds.
MissMaddy Messages: 2739 Registered: August 2006 Location: hopefully one later this ...
Troppo. Loco. Round the twist.
Wings wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 11:03
Groucho wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 10:45
georgia_domino wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 10:42
Bats79 wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 10:34
georgia_domino wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 10:26
I always thought that that 'amateur rider' is always looking for a draught breed x arab/thoroughbred or something light so that they get the best of both worlds without getting a constantly fixxy warmblood
What is a "constantly fixxy warmblood" because I breed warmbloods and I don't know that definition.
yep my bad...twas meant to be fizzy... and it was meant to be thoroughbred (because a clydie x is a warmblood :S )...umm what i was trying to give an example of was having a clydie cross the amateur rider thinks that they can leave it in the paddock for 2 or three days without having to worry about lunging before the ride...like a thoroughbred (generalisation)
my bad
Whoa Nelly....
Ive missed seeing Bats head explode
Someone might have to go around and check on Bats Does anyone know where that cold +hot = warmblood came from?
Everyone knows when you mix hot and cold you get warm!
I love my warmbloods (no, they're not clydie crosses!). I've bred one myself, and she's for me. At this point I'm just breeding for myself to have something that can take me as far as I can go in FEI dressage.
mbqh Messages: 3072 Registered: August 2008 Location: BEC
Troppo. Loco. Round the twist.
Started out thinking when we got Mega that we would aim towards people like me who wanted a very good looking, sound, smart, sensible horse to ride....
Now I have changed my mind and am now changing most of my breeding to aim at getting the foals to professionals to actually show them. BUT I have a younger stallion who's oldest foals are only just four years old... So promoting him is my main goal at the moment. Perhaps in a few years I will prefer foals go to amateurs, as there is certainly something to be said for a long or forever home over a professional who will sell them in a year or two once they have upped the value of the horse.
I am right now really interested in attracting more owners like this guy.... What a buzz to get a photo like this one of one of my Stallion's sons! And I will head up to the Landmark Classic to watch him in that.
BUT I am also now mainly aiming at the Campdrafting market and that will be very different to the Dressage world where I would feel the market for Amateurs would be much more desirable.
For example - I know in the dog world at least, it's VERY common for show breeders to prefer sharp/strong/overly bold dogs (and therefore lines) because of their 'ring presence' - the offspring of these dogs DO NOT generally make good pets for the average home, yet we are constantly told by some circles that everyone should be buying the offshoots from show animal breeding programs - until the requirements for show animals become much more closely aligned with the requirements for pet animals (as they generally are with cats), this will simply never be the case.
Whoa there just a minute!!!! I've been showing dogs since 1972 (yes, 39 YEARS) and in all that time, I've NEVER seen or heard of that happening. Temperament is of PRIME importance. With my breeds in particular, the main aim of breeding is to preserve the very people-oriented temperament and conformation of two quite ancient breeds.
Never? That has even been said on here a few times by breeders(and at least once by someone that I respect quite a lot! So it's not something that I necessarily look down on - I just think that it should NOT be as common as it is), prime example of this one of my students this year (I teach a three week companion animal welfare case study to the third years at LTU) even got a direct quote from a Dogs Vic breeder quite high up in the org saying exactly this. It's also partially the premise behind the 'Building Better Dogs' seminar that was held in 2010, as well as the basis (partially) behind the research of Tammy King (as well as Pauleen Bennett and a number of her students) - I absolutely agree that many breeders have programs that dpo select for good pet temperament, but there are just as many (if not more) that select for their take on the 'historical' use/temperament of a breed and/or a flashy dog with a big personality, as this wins shows... just because YOU don't do it, doesn't mean it isn't done (and I would also argue that there are a few breeders out there, that simply don't see the difference between selecting for a good pet temperament (as determined by the PET OWNER) and an ideal 'show' temperament).
Feel free to be mortified by my comments, but I stand by them (alongside some pretty good researchers and breeders).
georgia_domino wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 10:42
Bats79 wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 10:34
georgia_domino wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 10:26
I always thought that that 'amateur rider' is always looking for a draught breed x arab/thoroughbred or something light so that they get the best of both worlds without getting a constantly fixxy warmblood
What is a "constantly fixxy warmblood" because I breed warmbloods and I don't know that definition.
yep my bad...twas meant to be fizzy... and it was meant to be thoroughbred (because a clydie x is a warmblood :S )...umm what i was trying to give an example of was having a clydie cross the amateur rider thinks that they can leave it in the paddock for 2 or three days without having to worry about lunging before the ride...like a thoroughbred (generalisation)
my bad
Whoa Nelly....
Ive missed seeing Bats head explode
Someone might have to go around and check on Bats
Does anyone know where that cold +hot = warmblood came from?
Fortunately my ambulance subscription is up to date and the paramedics are not yet on "Christmas overload" so they didn't mind giving me CPR and letting me back onto the computer.
cold+hot=warmblood came from a mis-translation from German to English.
The Germans (and Dutch) call the Thoroughbred and Arab a FULLBLOOD not a hot blood. They also call the draught horses "phlegmatic" not cold.
They referred to the all purpose horse as "warmblut" which translates more to "warm hearted" than warm blood - it means that they are friendly and generous, not that they aren't energetic and active. Like when you say someone is a "cold blooded asehole" - it means that they are lacking tenderness, analytical and mean, not that they are very quiet and cool under pressure.
They also never considered the "warmblood" to be a cross between anything - it was the local horse that was altered to suit requirements of the day by introducing different types of horse such as the Neopolitan horse to make the marsh horse quicker, or the Yorkshire half blood (Yorkshire Coach horse crossed with a TB) to introduce the "roadster" trot for faster harness work, then the Anglo Arab like Ramzes to bring in some favoured lines from the past.
polocrossebabe Messages: 8833 Registered: February 2008 Location: teesdale-bannockburn
Its my party and I'll hoo haa if I want to
mbqh wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 12:27
Started out thinking when we got Mega that we would aim towards people like me who wanted a very good looking, sound, smart, sensible horse to ride....
Now I have changed my mind and am now changing most of my breeding to aim at getting the foals to professionals to actually show them. BUT I have a younger stallion who's oldest foals are only just four years old... So promoting him is my main goal at the moment. Perhaps in a few years I will prefer foals go to amateurs, as there is certainly something to be said for a long or forever home over a professional who will sell them in a year or two once they have upped the value of the horse.
I am right now really interested in attracting more owners like this guy.... What a buzz to get a photo like this one of one of my Stallion's sons! And I will head up to the Landmark Classic to watch him in that.
BUT I am also now mainly aiming at the Campdrafting market and that will be very different to the Dressage world where I would feel the market for Amateurs would be much more desirable.
don't forget the polocrosse market too polocrosse...king of the one-horse sports.
Steff_Stormy Messages: 9120 Registered: April 2008 Location: Elm Park ARC
Its my party and I'll hoo haa if I want to
I think ultimately everyone who breeds should be aiming to breed the best of the best as far as talent goes in the breeds chosen discipline. I don't see the point in breeding if you arn't breeding the best of the best. But I think some breeders focus more on competative ability and others on temprement,both of which are incredibly important and there is a market for both - however, the sucess is having BOTH the ability and the temprement together and that should be the main aim always. I don't understand why anybody would breed mediocre horses. If you arn't aiming towards perfection, why breed?
My question is, (and I'm trying to word it so everyone understands)... Why do temperament and elite ability HAVE to be mutually exclusive? Why do breeders need to choose between breeding for the elite market, and breeding for the average amateur rider/owner?
Are people really finding that for horses to have that 'winning edge' they need to be hotter and harder to ride? Or is it a case of amateur horses = not as sensitive and therefore safer?
Genuine questions, not judgements by any means. I am really interested to know the answer.
I am not currently breeding, but when I do I am looking for the package that I feel my kids are safe around, but can also perform and win. I am NOT looking to produce Olympic dressage/eventing horses though, my interest is in Arabians.
Groucho Messages: 17537 Registered: September 2008
The forum drove me to drink. Remind me to thank it.
Its a numbers game
At least in western, "amateurs" (and by this its defined as someone that does NOT derive income from training/riding/instructing, and its very very strict), outnumber "trainers" by about 100 to 1...roughly
If you bred only for trainers, youd be out of business quick smart as
a) There are so few trainers
b) Trainers are used to get horses "amateur" proof and move onto Ammy owners at some stage
Quite often big name trainers dont seem to ride big name horses (unless working for a stud for promotion)..look at the amount they pluck horses from knackery pens and turn them into superstars, or pick "weirdly" bred horses and also turn them into superstars
I think you'd be nuts to target just professionals
The forum drove me to drink. Remind me to thank it.
Nearly died at the clydie cross making a warm blood comment
Having worked for a breeder recently, there is a big difference between her Royal Hit foal (not a trace of clydie ) and your average TB yearling... Not that the TB won't get there as a performance horse, but the performance bred WB has so much RAW potential and exceptional movement... An amateur I would say could work almost any nice horse up the levels, where a professional wants a horse bred to start high and end up higher I suppose ?
Back to the question. I disagree with ANY breeding that is not for a purpose... Whether that purpose is kids pony, halter champion, or Olympic dressage. I work with horses bred for the performance market at all levels... From fancy WB colt, right down to my little man who has the movement and temperament to make a super low level ARC eventer, show jumper, dressage, trail riding etc horse for me
And every foal is considered as such. Breeders don't stress out about empty wombs... It's all about supply and demand...
[Updated on: Thu, 22 December 2011 16:30]
If it's love, and we decide that it's forever - no one else could do it better.
My question is, (and I'm trying to word it so everyone understands)... Why do temperament and elite ability HAVE to be mutually exclusive? Why do breeders need to choose between breeding for the elite market, and breeding for the average amateur rider/owner?
They don't have to be. But when you have people comparing the 10 top horses (dressage anyway) in the world and then saying "I want a horse like Totilas" breeders, who only have input up to the time the pregnancy is made - become desperate to produce the movement that looks most like Totilas's movement at the earliest stage possible.
So they attempt to breed an excessively "fancy" moving young horse and to do that they breed to the most excessively moving horse and then breed it's daughter to the fanciest mover - all based on selling the young horse before it costs them too much money.
You only have to look at the number of double and triple cross frozen semen foals being promoted by studs that have never produced and FEI dressage horse.
Yet when you promote for trainability and correctness first you are called "old fashioned" and "behind the times".
For example - we had FOUR grand prix dressage stallions produced by our imported stallion Romedio in his first few seasons at stud. They were Mountbatten, Rubens, Romboli and Roanoke. Yet according to most people those horses are of no importance because they weren't fancy movers - doesn't matter that only one of the trainers - Miguel Tavora - had ever ridden higher than medium before they started training these horses. Many others made GP with riders over seas, lots made FEI level and in the second generation there are GP horses.
Yet because they weren't "fancy big movers" the bloodline is totally overlooked when it actually supplies a high degree of trainability and top notch balance and correctness. You can make the "movement" happen if you are a half way decent rider and you WILL become a decent rider if you are training a good tempered and balanced horse.
And then of course there is the costs - people with more money seem to think that they should buy the "fanciest they can" without regard to what they are going to do with it, so to actually make a living you end up catering to "that" part of the market instead of the more "reality based" market.
Spottyzebra Messages: 3839 Registered: January 2007 Location: TADARC
Step away from the computer,
Bats79 wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 18:21
Sarj wrote on Thu, 22 December 2011 15:55
My question is, (and I'm trying to word it so everyone understands)... Why do temperament and elite ability HAVE to be mutually exclusive? Why do breeders need to choose between breeding for the elite market, and breeding for the average amateur rider/owner?
They don't have to be. But when you have people comparing the 10 top horses (dressage anyway) in the world and then saying "I want a horse like Totilas" breeders, who only have input up to the time the pregnancy is made - become desperate to produce the movement that looks most like Totilas's movement at the earliest stage possible.
So they attempt to breed an excessively "fancy" moving young horse and to do that they breed to the most excessively moving horse and then breed it's daughter to the fanciest mover - all based on selling the young horse before it costs them too much money.
You only have to look at the number of double and triple cross frozen semen foals being promoted by studs that have never produced and FEI dressage horse.
Yet when you promote for trainability and correctness first you are called "old fashioned" and "behind the times".
For example - we had FOUR grand prix dressage stallions produced by our imported stallion Romedio in his first few seasons at stud. They were Mountbatten, Rubens, Romboli and Roanoke. Yet according to most people those horses are of no importance because they weren't fancy movers - doesn't matter that only one of the trainers - Miguel Tavora - had ever ridden higher than medium before they started training these horses. Many others made GP with riders over seas, lots made FEI level and in the second generation there are GP horses.
Yet because they weren't "fancy big movers" the bloodline is totally overlooked when it actually supplies a high degree of trainability and top notch balance and correctness. You can make the "movement" happen if you are a half way decent rider and you WILL become a decent rider if you are training a good tempered and balanced horse.
And then of course there is the costs - people with more money seem to think that they should buy the "fanciest they can" without regard to what they are going to do with it, so to actually make a living you end up catering to "that" part of the market instead of the more "reality based" market.
See that makes perfect sense to me. What a shame that those things are overlooked and to some degree bred out of the more modern type Warmbloods.
SteffS I also thinks that breeding the best to the best is also an example of where breeders go wrong. I can understand why they do it - they are catering to what people want, but at the same time they seem to be sacrificing ridability etc. But why are people wanting to have the next Totilla's, for example, anyway? Lets face it most of us are never going to be at the standard to ever ride a horse such as that at GP level. I wonder if it is simply a vanity thing. I recently was told a story about a mum with a couple of young kids that just had to buy the flashest WB she could buy despite being warned that it may be too much for her. Apparently she is now a quadraplegic after a horrific fall from said animal. I don't know the truth of this story as I didn't hear it firsthand but it does make you wonder.
MBQH I love the picture of Mega's son, he's very handsome. Do you find that breeding "working horses" can make them hotter? Not stirring its a genuine question as a couple of stock horses I've owned/known over the years with the more sought after working lines eg Abbey/Elliots Creek Cadet can be quiet hot and sensitive. I liken them to working dogs such as Kelpies that are bred to do a specific job. I've been told that working QH's (not the pleasure ones) can be the same too but don't know how true that is.
RealityBites Messages: 3461 Registered: February 2008
Unstoppable, ungaggable, unzippable
I wrote out a whole reply and my computer ate it
When I was breeding pure Friesians, I was aiming at breeding horses true to type to the breed standard, with excellent conformation and temprement. I never need them for a particular 'market' or rider. If someone bought them wanting to do dressage, or plod around the bush, that was up to them.
In my opinion if you have a well put together horse, no confirmation faults, and a superb temprement, then it should be able to do whatever the rider wants it to do. Within reason of course as some breeds are more suited to certain disciplines than others
Now that I'll only be breeding the occasional partbred, any that I can actually part with will be horses of good conformation, movement and temprement, that are well handled etc etc. So if a buyer wants to compete at Olympic level dressage, technically they should be able to ( several Friesians are competing at Grand Prix level in Australia now) Or if someone wants an ARC mount, they'll be great for that too.
But as said above, I don't beleive ability, conformation and temprement should be mutually exclusive, I think you can be greedy and want all of those things
A bit off topic but in relation to Realitybites post - I have heard a few people say that some of the things that make the fresian the horse it is could be lost if breeding purely for the dressage market.
They would agree with your first statement - to breed to the standard of excellence and therefore have a horse suited to dressage rather than to breed purely for dressage.
See I am not a dressage rider, and I highly doubt I will ever reach FEI in anything, but this doesn't make sense to me about what you were saying Bats... Don't you have more chance of success with a greater market by breeding for trainability, than breeding for flashy movement? I would think that a trainable horse can be taken further than a flashy mover that is less trainable? All the movement in the world surely can't make up for a difficult to train horse? And is flashy movement necessarily 'correct' movement, likely to withstand work and stay sound for a whole career...
It just seems to me that Horse Deals is full of WB's and WB crosses that wouldn't appeal to the average owner for various reasons, and with only so many elite riders, I think trainabilty, temperament and conformation should come before elite marketability. Or at least it would be my aim when breeding. You must be doing something right Bats, that stallion you were telling me about looks after his rider so well, and I would think that would make a breeder more proud that all the flashyness in the world!
Spottyzebra Messages: 3839 Registered: January 2007 Location: TADARC
Step away from the computer,
That sounds fair enough RB. I think the difference with Friesians and other breeds that are more true to type with very little outside breed influences is that they aren't being bred to be different (if that makes sense ). People buy them because they love that particular type of horse and if rider/horse have the desire or ability to go further they can. If they don't they don't. In particular with Friesian's, Gypsy Cob's etc its like owning the horse you dreamed of as a child. Correct me if I'm wrong but they don't seem to be striving to change the type by achieving flashier movement, more uphill conformation, etc. etc. A Friesian (like many horses) is capable of these things with correct training and riding anyway.
In the UK at the moment there is a fair bit of uproar going on with breeders of Irish Draughts. There are a number of people who want to change the breed over the next couple of generations to make them appeal more to the high end competition market. In short I think they want to become more competitive at a market level with Warmbloods in particular. Whereas many breeders are claiming that their pure bred horses are already jumping off the shelf to the amateur market who want safe and reliable mounts, others argue that it is the performance bred ISH's that do much better at an International level. I personally think it would be a shame to see the breeds characteristics diluted to try to change the breed to suit a market thats not nearly as big as the everyday riders.
I'm having a go at breeding something for myself soon, it won't be for sale.
I'm breeding something that I imagine would be far too much horse for an amateur but will be perfect for what I want. Here's hoping, you never know till you're on it's back!Fear is temporary, regret is forever
Evil Messages: 1583 Registered: October 2007 Location: tooborac
Completely Insane
We are breeding all round show horse and pony types here. They are are a mix of of warmblood and anglo breeding, and then welsh and riding pony.
I suppose we are catering to the people that just want a good allrounder saddle/ show horse or pony that they can have fun with and do a number of activities with that are affordable. The few arabian warmbloods from our breeding have been shown to Australian Champion wins and our ponies and palominos have won at the royals, HOTY and major breed shows. When it comes down to the crunch you have to breed what you really love and then hope that other people will want them as well regardless of breed or discipline.
martina Messages: 15642 Registered: April 2007 Location: Surf Coast RC
The forum drove me to drink. Remind me to thank it.
To answer the actual question .... Only ONE answer:
They (the breeders) try to cater for the professional, as that is the market to aim for and that's the market spending the BIG $$$ !! Simple as that
It can be the WB's, the GRP, the ISH, the QH .... and so on ....
Does it work - probably not and lucky we end up with the "left over's", which are suitable for the "normal" rider
So ?! You better aske the breeders directly to get an acurate answer ?! How does breeding and catering for - go together anyway ?
Cheers MARTINA
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about how some people feel that there is a much bigger market for amateur riders than professional riders. By this they classified an amateur rider as an everyday rider who may or not compete but wants a good sane safe but competitive all rounder type horse. Professional's were people who are ultra competitive and compete, or aim to compete, at top levels and in the particular case mentioned ride top moving Warmbloods. So out of curiosity I thought I'd put this poll on here to see what the majority of riders class themselves as. 
no seriously I am competitive, I just went and bought a new mount for the new season to do better and get to that next level, and I know a lot of other riders in the same boat, there are tonnes of riders out there that are competitive and are moving up the grades, some slower than others, but you only have to attend an event to see how many riders are there...
feel free to tell me why a clydie cross isn't a warmblood..i was under the assumption that a cold blood cross a hot blood was a warmblood...im sorry guys 
... unless it's the ones who fall for the pretty face! 
