I’ve done this on an anon login as to avoid the hoo haa previous threads seemed to have gained.
I've got a Thoroughbred in it's late teens who refuses to accept any sort of roundness or contact. She raced for a few years, and then was given to a lady who hooned her around, and had little to no real education before she was given to us- and so rejects any pressure on the reins and throws her head or stiffens instantaneously.
It's gotten to the point where she will not become round within an entire pony club lesson, and no matter how much pressure or urging given she will not collect. We've used side reins, and they make little to no difference.
The only time she's ever given us roundness it was awkward and not bending at the poll, but overreaching, and even this lasted for only a stride or two.
Does anyone have any suggestions of circle work or exercises that will encourage collection? Or how they combated a stubborn-necked horse?
This is where an experienced instructor comes in. I love pony club but you don't always get the most experienced instructors and when you do it's rare to get effective one-on-one time.
You need someone who can be there and observe not only the horse's behaviour but your own - as it's more likely to be a bit of both than just the horse - and give you advice accordingly.
martina Messages: 15308 Registered: April 2007 Location: Surf Coast RC
The forum drove me to drink. Remind me to thank it.
Get the horse checked out by a Chiro/Vet/Dentist .... after "issues" have been ruled out - I think, it would be a good idea to invest $$ and get a good instructor/trainer to help you on a "One-One" base. This should include getting the horse to lunge properly and Yes call it gadgets, but this horse sounds like it would responed very well to the USG Training System
Again, when you get the horse to work over the back and in to a contact, this should be easy transfered to the riding part.
Good Luck Cheers MARTINA
PS: Considering this is an older horse, with NO proper education - I strongly advise to get profesional help !!
Have you tried lunging her Ina roller with some hayband running through from roller to bit back to roller on both sides. Sort of like you are remouthing her and each day bring her in a little bit. Some one you know should be able to show you how to put it on correctly. I have just done the same thing with a pony she is slowly getting there but I don't have the time Or the correct knowledge so I'm going to send her to a trainer.
Id be checking for soreness, getting a vet/chiro or osteo out to see if there is any problems before continuing to try get the horse to go round. My horses feet are as swift as rolling thunder,
they carry me away from all my fears,
and when the world threatens to fall asunder,
His mane is there to catch my tears
country.cowgirl Messages: 4064 Registered: March 2008 Location: Australia
Step away from the computer,
no wonder these things attract hoo-haa
1. check for pain/ soreness - dentist, chiro and saddle-fitter
2. decent qualified instructor - not PC
3. A new attitude!! honestly...you won't get a horse 'round' or 'collected' over-night, let alone in a 1 hr PC session...like a PC session is going to solve all...
Quote:
no matter how much pressure or urging given she will not collect. We've used side reins, and they make little to no difference.
do you want roundness or true collection?
Side reins will help for roundness but not collection
true collection means the horse takes the bit and works into it, side-reins 'grab' the horse everytime it goes on the bit, excessive use of side-reins will teach the horse to evade the bit but will teach the horse to work 'round' or 'in frame' but with the head in no-man's land, not collected...
chuck the side-reins out, once the horse is broken in throw them in the garbage, waste of time and are only for those that can't or can't be bothered to train true collective
How do YOU ASK for contact/collection/roundness?
do I suggest your 'urging' may be see-sawing or continual half-halting that would also encourage her to evade the bit? you need a steady, consistent contact that gives as soon as she does...
A clear understanding of how you ask/urge etc. will be able to let people help you more, but your going to have to be open about your faults and not pretend to be anything great...
This just seems a classic case of inexperienced rider and uneducated horse... you need some lessons and to learn to ask your horse correctly... I would also discuss with instructor the advantages of sending the horse to a trainer for a week or two if he is really struggling to take the contact at all (I am meaning contact in any position...) might be beneficial for both of you to have a horse professionally schooled for that bit...
I don't normally respond to these topics, but I thought I would throw my two cents worth in on this one. The advice to get the horse checked out physically is good - you may unearth something to give you some answers, and if not you won't have done any harm.
But PLEASE do not use the gadgets pictured or described above. I know everybody has differing opinions which they are well entitled to, but as a general rule I don't agree with these measures, and I especially disagree when recommending them to somebody who is inexperienced and may use them to extreme or improper degrees.
As others have said, please employ a good instructor who can help you HELP your horse to relax forward into a nice outline rather than impose this posture on her through forced methods.
I'm sorry to those who use the equipment described above, and I certainly don't mean to offend anybody, but I can just picture this going a bit wrong.
1. check for pain/ soreness - dentist, chiro and saddle-fitter
2. decent qualified instructor - not PC
3. A new attitude!! honestly...you won't get a horse 'round' or 'collected' over-night, let alone in a 1 hr PC session...like a PC session is going to solve all...
Quote:
no matter how much pressure or urging given she will not collect. We've used side reins, and they make little to no difference.
do you want roundness or true collection?
Side reins will help for roundness but not collection
true collection means the horse takes the bit and works into it, side-reins 'grab' the horse everytime it goes on the bit, excessive use of side-reins will teach the horse to evade the bit but will teach the horse to work 'round' or 'in frame' but with the head in no-man's land, not collected...
chuck the side-reins out, once the horse is broken in throw them in the garbage, waste of time and are only for those that can't or can't be bothered to train true collective
How do YOU ASK for contact/collection/roundness?
do I suggest your 'urging' may be see-sawing or continual half-halting that would also encourage her to evade the bit? you need a steady, consistent contact that gives as soon as she does...
A clear understanding of how you ask/urge etc. will be able to let people help you more, but your going to have to be open about your faults and not pretend to be anything great...
This just seems a classic case of inexperienced rider and uneducated horse... you need some lessons and to learn to ask your horse correctly... I would also discuss with instructor the advantages of sending the horse to a trainer for a week or two if he is really struggling to take the contact at all (I am meaning contact in any position...) might be beneficial for both of you to have a horse professionally schooled for that bit...
learns4life Messages: 4207 Registered: December 2007
Step away from the computer,
So you acknowledge there are other threads on this subject, no doubt I'm one of the people your avoiding, so I'll do my best to be kind.
Please don't use gadgets, withouts decades of experience you can very easily have a serious accident or teach your horse to lash out.
It is through dedication and sound advice/instruction you will be able to get your horse working nicely, and better yet, with proper instruction you will be able to achieve this with any horse! Not just yours!!
I agree this forum is prone to hoohaa, and when I first joined I was upset over it too, but over time, after thread after thread of dodgy, dangerous, or just stupid posts, I became a cynical cow!!!
If you sift through the old threads, and take notice of the good valid points and take the hoohaa with a grain of salt, you will find many pearls of wisdom.
Bob Marley said
I know I'm not perfect and I don't live to be. But, before you start pointing fingers, make sure your hands are clean
Try not to take it personally, I strongly dislike all humans... now horses, horses I like!
1. check for pain/ soreness - dentist, chiro and saddle-fitter
2. decent qualified instructor - not PC
3. A new attitude!! honestly...you won't get a horse 'round' or 'collected' over-night, let alone in a 1 hr PC session...like a PC session is going to solve all...
Quote:
no matter how much pressure or urging given she will not collect. We've used side reins, and they make little to no difference.
do you want roundness or true collection?
Side reins will help for roundness but not collection
true collection means the horse takes the bit and works into it, side-reins 'grab' the horse everytime it goes on the bit, excessive use of side-reins will teach the horse to evade the bit but will teach the horse to work 'round' or 'in frame' but with the head in no-man's land, not collected...
chuck the side-reins out, once the horse is broken in throw them in the garbage, waste of time and are only for those that can't or can't be bothered to train true collective
How do YOU ASK for contact/collection/roundness?
do I suggest your 'urging' may be see-sawing or continual half-halting that would also encourage her to evade the bit? you need a steady, consistent contact that gives as soon as she does...
A clear understanding of how you ask/urge etc. will be able to let people help you more, but your going to have to be open about your faults and not pretend to be anything great...
This just seems a classic case of inexperienced rider and uneducated horse... you need some lessons and to learn to ask your horse correctly... I would also discuss with instructor the advantages of sending the horse to a trainer for a week or two if he is really struggling to take the contact at all (I am meaning contact in any position...) might be beneficial for both of you to have a horse professionally schooled for that bit...
tiagem Messages: 1171 Registered: October 2009 Location: CSRC
Level 1 - Advanced
under cover wrote on Tue, 24 April 2012 14:19
I don't normally respond to these topics, but I thought I would throw my two cents worth in on this one. The advice to get the horse checked out physically is good - you may unearth something to give you some answers, and if not you won't have done any harm.
But PLEASE do not use the gadgets pictured or described above. I know everybody has differing opinions which they are well entitled to, but as a general rule I don't agree with these measures, and I especially disagree when recommending them to somebody who is inexperienced and may use them to extreme or improper degrees.
As others have said, please employ a good instructor who can help you HELP your horse to relax forward into a nice outline rather than impose this posture on her through forced methods.
I'm sorry to those who use the equipment described above, and I certainly don't mean to offend anybody, but I can just picture this going a bit wrong.
Over and out.
Double LIKE!
I too have a TB in his late (very late) teens. We have started working on collection, as well as other things, but this could only happen when I got him fit and balanced enough to be able to start carrying himself correctly. Not only that, but his favourite trick was take hold of the bit and brace as hard as he could....at over half a ton he did a very good job of it.
I bit the bullet, worked hard to earn extra $$$ to pay for lessons with an instructor who helped us with softness and lightness. Low and behold, he's off the forehand, we have correct canter leads, he no longer braces or pulls his worry face, we can do flying changes, our laterals have improved out of sight.....I have a new horse
He was brought from the paky pens for $300, little education and whole basket of trouble. It can be done!
Goodluck and start looking for an instructor "Growing up is realising that every single one of your problems is caused by you being a complete f@rking idiot"
I am just going to be a pain in the bum and point out the whole collection is not roundness thing.The horse through all its trials has preserved the sweetness of paradise in its blood.
smartmoves Messages: 448 Registered: September 2011 Location: MCG
Level 1
Thank god there are some others out there that say no to gadgets for the inexperienced handler. I thought I was going mad.
This is not Europe this is Australia. The land of opportunity which means anyone can own a horse!!! But not everyone can use gadgets.
Instruction Instuction Instuction is the key. And I will bite my tongue and say that if you cant afford instuction then dont ask for "roundness"
willowbeast Messages: 557 Registered: December 2011 Location: Wyena
Level 1
smartmoves wrote on Tue, 24 April 2012 22:19
Thank god there are some others out there that say no to gadgets for the inexperienced handler. I thought I was going mad.
This is not Europe this is Australia. The land of opportunity which means anyone can own a horse!!! But not everyone can use gadgets.
Instruction Instuction Instuction is the key. And I will bite my tongue and say that if you cant afford instuction then dont ask for "roundness"
I don't understand how they're mutually exclusive?.....
Anywho, I have a very similar situation with an OTTB... and it's practice, practice, practice! I've complained myself about having issues with the horse and contact, but it was all a matter of expecting too much, too fast! Once I slowed things down and encouraged softness rather than constant pressure, which is what I was previously used to, it was like a whole different horse!
in.the.saddle Messages: 4577 Registered: September 2006
Step away from the computer,
*sigh* Can you put your ankle behind your head first go? Well let's tie you in that position for 30 mins and make you hop on the spot, I'm sure you will find it easier next time.
You definitely need a good instructor (and I won't get into the "there are instructors and instructors"); don't resort to gadgets or hayband as this is not an overnight fix like you are probably looking for.
quote: you can’t reason a person out of a position they didn’t arrive at through reason
Have you tried lunging her Ina roller with some hayband running through from roller to bit back to roller on both sides. Sort of like you are remouthing her and each day bring her in a little bit. Some one you know should be able to show you how to put it on correctly. I have just done the same thing with a pony she is slowly getting there but I don't have the time Or the correct knowledge so I'm going to send her to a trainer.
learns4life Messages: 4207 Registered: December 2007
Step away from the computer,
kokobene wrote on Wed, 25 April 2012 09:23
Kozie wrote on Tue, 24 April 2012 13:43
Have you tried lunging her Ina roller with some hayband running through from roller to bit back to roller on both sides. Sort of like you are remouthing her and each day bring her in a little bit. Some one you know should be able to show you how to put it on correctly. I have just done the same thing with a pony she is slowly getting there but I don't have the time Or the correct knowledge so I'm going to send her to a trainer.
Am I the only one who read this and went
OP - PLEASE don't take this advice
That's why I mentioned accidents and lashing out..... It's the perfect way to teach your horse to rear and flip:(
Bob Marley said
I know I'm not perfect and I don't live to be. But, before you start pointing fingers, make sure your hands are clean
Try not to take it personally, I strongly dislike all humans... now horses, horses I like!
lessons - preferably with someone that works on your position first and has experience with producing tbs.
Its dam hard not knowing what you are doing and possibly not 100% understanding the instructor and at the same time trying to train a green horse.
So I would consider lessons on a schooly with education for you, reading and research. Asking questions, getting things explained as many time it takes for you to 'get it' (not a dig at you but I dont always 'get' my instructor. I ask questions, I research - eg Jane Savoie on you tube).
When you understand what you are doing, then its going to help you educate your horse.
And re roundness and collection. If the horse isnt through, using its back... Many can assume the position but they arent collected/truly rounded but in a frame.Not in Victoria - look north, way north... actually lie on your back in the paddock.. and... you wont find me there
*sigh* Can you put your ankle behind your head first go? Well let's tie you in that position for 30 mins and make you hop on the spot, I'm sure you will find it easier next time.
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