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Tongue in Dressage. [message #2648385] Sun, 13 May 2012 09:35 Go to next message
  obsessed  
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Why are Judges all over the world educated to severely punish the sight of the tongue when it is protruding well outside the side of the mouth...

[Updated on: Sun, 13 May 2012 09:55]


Ratbag.
Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2648399 is a reply to message #2648385 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 09:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Bats79  is currently offline Bats79  
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They aren't. The tip of the tongue at the bottom of the mouth and the "sight" of the side of the tongue between the lips at the side of the mouth isn't supposed to be punished.

However, any part of tongue that moves outside the mouth is a sign of discomfort in the horse and means that either the bit fit or the training have made the horse uncomfortable and they are supposed to punish that.


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Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2648401 is a reply to message #2648399 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 09:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  obsessed  
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Bats79 wrote on Sun, 13 May 2012 09:51

They aren't. The tip of the tongue at the bottom of the mouth and the "sight" of the side of the tongue between the lips at the side of the mouth isn't supposed to be punished.

However, any part of tongue that moves outside the mouth is a sign of discomfort in the horse and means that either the bit fit or the training have made the horse uncomfortable and they are supposed to punish that.



Bats.

I will make my post much more clearer... Smile


Ratbag.
Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2648403 is a reply to message #2648399 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 09:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Finn  
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Oh for crying out loud!!

Obsessed, lately he has been flapping it out the side sometimes, not all the time. He has a playful tongue. He isn't resisting when doing it, it's just something that happens. He does it training, in lessons and i notice he did it in the test yesterday.

I was NOT penalized for it, nor was it written on my test sheet.

Here's the photo for those of you playing at home,

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Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2648405 is a reply to message #2648403 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 09:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  obsessed  
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Then if you werent penalised for it by the HRCAV Judges.


Then as I said before.


I strongly encourage you to stick to the HRCAV then.. Smile



Ratbag.
Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2648409 is a reply to message #2648405 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 10:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Finn  
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I strongly encourage you to mind your own business.

What is your problem with me? You are nasty, have digs wherever you can and now have to start another thread because there is a photo with my horse with his tongue poking, at a free rein walk. He didn't do it at any other part of the test and i told you in the other thread no the judge did not penalize me for it AND i am led to believe she mainly judges EA.
Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2648414 is a reply to message #2648401 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 10:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Bats79  is currently offline Bats79  
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obsessed wrote on Sun, 13 May 2012 09:53

Bats79 wrote on Sun, 13 May 2012 09:51

They aren't. The tip of the tongue at the bottom of the mouth and the "sight" of the side of the tongue between the lips at the side of the mouth isn't supposed to be punished.

However, any part of tongue that moves outside the mouth is a sign of discomfort in the horse and means that either the bit fit or the training have made the horse uncomfortable and they are supposed to punish that.



Bats.

I will make my post much more clearer... Smile



LOL The addition of the word WELL makes a difference.



Apart from that I am not au fait on the discussion. Cool And I hate it when I jump into a conversation when everyone else knows what is really being discussed. Embarassed

If the judge sees it than they should definitely comment - even if only to say "tongue visible - this could become a problem".

Tongue flapping in any way is always something to be concerned about - it may be something that you can do little about due to it being a psychological response by the horse. In 90% of cases you can train a horse out of a tongue problem but in some cases even the best in the world fail and the horse will be punished in the arena whether there is an obvious resistance or not.

Brett Parberry lost 10% across the board at his latest competition.

[Updated on: Sun, 13 May 2012 10:21]


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Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2648417 is a reply to message #2648409 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 10:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  obsessed  
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Finn wrote on Sun, 13 May 2012 10:00

I strongly encourage you to mind your own business.

What is your problem with me? You are nasty, have digs wherever you can and now have to start another thread because there is a photo with my horse with his tongue poking, at a free rein walk. He didn't do it at any other part of the test and i told you in the other thread no the judge did not penalize me for it AND i am led to believe she mainly judges EA.



Finn.

You stated in your other post. That he did it all the time in training and it wasnt resistance...

I am merely stating it IS resistance...You can argue all you like.

But it should be severely punished in Dressage... Sad


Ratbag.
Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2648423 is a reply to message #2648409 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 10:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Daize  is currently offline Daize
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Interesting horse. Smile

Does he do it in the paddock, grazing, being led in a headstall, being led with a bridle, or just when being ridden with a bit in his mouth? Because if that's the case, then he does have a problem. Perhaps that should be - his rider does have a problem.

There's something he doesn't like, as the tongue coming out like that is clearly a sign of discomfort - usually problems with correct contact but perhaps not so in this picture. Judges should penalise such obvious signs.

Interesting.
Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2648428 is a reply to message #2648417 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 10:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Lulu  
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Sorry Finn ratbag is correct. Poking out the side like that is ALWAYS considered resistance in a test. Maybe the judge missed it.
Technically it should be one point from any movement where it appears out to the side but most judges will not score more than a 4 for that movement.
Hanging, not poking, out the front, especially in a double bridle, is not considered resistance.
Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2648475 is a reply to message #2648428 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 10:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  claire1  
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Twoloos....

What was it you said recently about fairies etc......



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Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2648478 is a reply to message #2648475 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 10:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  claire1  
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Finn it's probably a habit formed during his racing days.......assuming he is an OTTB


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Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2648496 is a reply to message #2648478 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 11:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Finn  
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claire1 wrote on Sun, 13 May 2012 10:59

Finn it's probably a habit formed during his racing days.......assuming he is an OTTB




He is 14yo, has done 5 years of dressage and has points at Novice EA. Yep he raced, a very long time ago. He does it in training sometimes, look down and it's poking BUT it is only for a few seconds he does NOT do it the whole time.

I think the long he is in work then it will go away. He did not do it when i first got him BUT i wasn't training what i am now.

Some days he does it, others he doesn't.

When i say it isn't resistance, he isn't resisting what i am asking him when he does it. You can see in the photo he is on a long rein walk, no pressure to the bridle or anything.

He placed 2nd in his L2 test and 5th in his L3, so obviously we were doing something right. The judge was a harsh marker IMO but didn't say anything about his wayward tongue, he ever poked it out when we walked in front of her to head down to start our test.

Lulu, i am aware it is to be marked as resistance as i said in the other thread but he isn't resisting.

At the end of the day, it's my bloody horse and if we are doing a good test and place well i am very happy, if we don't well so be it.

Thanks Obsessed for reminding me why i keep my photos on FB now and don't post them here. I really hope to meet you in person one day!
Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2648498 is a reply to message #2648478 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 11:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  honeyjoy  
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I have a WB that loves doing it in the paddock...she loves to try and reach the side of her face - she actually slaps it against her face Rolls Eyes - she was broken in, but hasn't been ridden since...2 years ago...did it before being broken in and does it purely to amuse herself and piss me off!
Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2648511 is a reply to message #2648385 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 11:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  WBS  
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When I was riding in Germany there was the cheekiest and most playful horse, conveniently by the same sire as my two Rolls Eyes

He would make all sorts of faces, do crazy and quirky things with his head, AND... he would pop his tongue out for you to tickle. I'm talking ALL the way out. He would also hit you with his tongue! Laughing

Never once did it come out with a bridle on Smile

[Updated on: Sun, 13 May 2012 11:25]


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Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2648525 is a reply to message #2648511 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 11:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  claire1  
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Laughing Freddy likes having his tongue brushed!!! And his teeth...


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Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2648527 is a reply to message #2648511 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 11:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  honeyjoy  
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WBS wrote on Sun, 13 May 2012 11:25

When I was riding in Germany there was the cheekiest and most playful horse, conveniently by the same sire as my two Rolls Eyes

He would make all sorts of faces, do crazy and quirky things with his head, AND... he would pop his tongue out for you to tickle. I'm talking ALL the way out. He would also hit you with his tongue! Laughing

Never once did it come out with a bridle on Smile



that's what my mare does! Hannoverian .....G line...
Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2648530 is a reply to message #2648525 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 11:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Finn  
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claire1 wrote on Sun, 13 May 2012 11:41

Laughing Freddy likes having his tongue brushed!!! And his teeth...


Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2648559 is a reply to message #2648530 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 12:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  suew1001  
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Out of my way, I am in the midst of a hoo haa monologue
My horse doesn't have a tongue..... yes, really..... Shocked Sad


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Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2648572 is a reply to message #2648559 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 12:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  claire1  
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suew1001 wrote on Sun, 13 May 2012 12:34

My horse doesn't have a tongue..... yes, really..... Shocked Sad




No evasion from him then!!!!!


I'd love to see a pic


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Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2648599 is a reply to message #2648572 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 13:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  jsste4  is currently offline jsste4  
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Unfortunately 9 times out of 10 a tongue shown in dressage is a form of resistance. Either way a tongue sticking out is not ok, and something to be addressed now before the habit becomes permanent.

In degrees of severity, a tongue poking out through the front teeth and only showing 1 inch every now and then is considered better than a horse sticking it’s tongue out the side.

Unfortunately I have been through this situation and mine was due to resistance! I have spent many years trying to refine the aids and make them more effective, whilst being kind and considerate to the horse. Thankfully I don’t have this issue anymore, well 99% of the time, and when it is there I know it’s something I have done wrong.

Finn from the looks of the picture, it doesn’t look like you are putting your horse under too much pressure from the hand or anything like that. But perhaps he is just sticking his tongue out because your noseband might be quite loose, or he would prefer a different bit etc. Anyway, I’m not having a go, just pointing out that I’ve also been there, but I was penalised when competing and my horse’s tongue was out. If possible it’s always best to keep it in when he has a bridle on if you can! He can have the rest of the day to stick it out! Haha

Anyway have fun with it, as long as you enjoy your horse and are
willing to learn you can always do things to fix it.

Good luck!
Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2648751 is a reply to message #2648385 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 16:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  learns4life  is currently offline learns4life  
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I know why his tongue flaps about, and that's why Finn hates me, I questioned the methods she uses and advises others to use once before.

Enough said.


Bob Marley said

I know I'm not perfect and I don't live to be. But, before you start pointing fingers, make sure your hands are clean


Try not to take it personally, I strongly dislike all humans... now horses, horses I like!
Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2648756 is a reply to message #2648751 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 16:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  English Rose  is currently offline English Rose  
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learns4life wrote on Sun, 13 May 2012 16:35

I know why his tongue flaps about, and that's why Finn hates me, I questioned the methods she uses and advises others to use once before.

Enough said.


I'm intrigued. What does she do to make him stick his tongue out?
Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2648793 is a reply to message #2648756 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 17:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  ellabw6 is currently online ellabw6  
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English Rose wrote on Sun, 13 May 2012 16:43

learns4life wrote on Sun, 13 May 2012 16:35

I know why his tongue flaps about, and that's why Finn hates me, I questioned the methods she uses and advises others to use once before.

Enough said.


I'm intrigued. What does she do to make him stick his tongue out?


Me too.


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Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2648828 is a reply to message #2648756 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 17:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Lulu  
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English Rose wrote on Sun, 13 May 2012 16:43

learns4life wrote on Sun, 13 May 2012 16:35

I know why his tongue flaps about, and that's why Finn hates me, I questioned the methods she uses and advises others to use once before.

Enough said.


I'm intrigued. What does she do to make him stick his tongue out?

She calls him names.
Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2648851 is a reply to message #2648751 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 18:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  obsessed  
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learns4life wrote on Sun, 13 May 2012 16:35

I know why his tongue flaps about, and that's why Finn hates me, I questioned the methods she uses and advises others to use once before.

Enough said.



oooogh please tell. Smile


Ratbag.
Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2648894 is a reply to message #2648851 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 19:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Finn  
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I do not hate you, that would require feelings on my behalf. You merely piss me off with your constant bulldust. Please fill me in on what i do to make him do this.
Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2648947 is a reply to message #2648828 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 20:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  English Rose  is currently offline English Rose  
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Lulu wrote on Sun, 13 May 2012 17:50

English Rose wrote on Sun, 13 May 2012 16:43

learns4life wrote on Sun, 13 May 2012 16:35

I know why his tongue flaps about, and that's why Finn hates me, I questioned the methods she uses and advises others to use once before.

Enough said.


I'm intrigued. What does she do to make him stick his tongue out?

She calls him names.



Laughing Laughing
Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2648998 is a reply to message #2648947 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 21:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Finn  
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I do call him names Laughing Laughing

Those names vary depending on whether he is being well behaved or not.

Come on L4L, i'm waiting on this 'information' you seem to have about my riding.

Considering i don't remember having any conversation with you about my 'methods' i imagine it was pretty insignificant.
Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2649031 is a reply to message #2648998 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 22:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  smartmoves  is currently offline smartmoves  
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There are a number of reasons why a horse may put its tongue out the side of its mouth (whilst wearing a bridle and saddle)
The saddle is not fitting properly
The rider rides with too much tension
The bit is incorrectly fitted
The horse may have TMD
I think there is an issue and it would be naive of anyone not to investigate possible causes.
Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2649047 is a reply to message #2649031 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 22:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Finn  
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smartmoves wrote on Sun, 13 May 2012 22:09

There are a number of reasons why a horse may put its tongue out the side of its mouth (whilst wearing a bridle and saddle)
The saddle is not fitting properly
The rider rides with too much tension
The bit is incorrectly fitted
The horse may have TMD
I think there is an issue and it would be naive of anyone not to investigate possible causes.



At the moment i am putting his down to the fact he is over due for the dentist. I don't think it will cause a problem later on down the track.

His saddle fits well, i was not riding with tension, Bit and bridle fit well. Seriously, look at the photo. Does he look stressed to you?
Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2649055 is a reply to message #2649031 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 22:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  akubra  
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He looks like a big dag with his tongue hanging out Finn, I take he is a bit of a character. Very Happy

I notice he is on the forehand and tilting his head in one of the photos, maybe with the head tilting avoidance there might be something there and worth a bit of investigation.

But needless to say, you are out there having a go and good on you and getting some good results. Very Happy


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Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2649062 is a reply to message #2649031 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 22:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  English Rose  is currently offline English Rose  
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smartmoves wrote on Sun, 13 May 2012 22:09

There are a number of reasons why a horse may put its tongue out the side of its mouth (whilst wearing a bridle and saddle)
The saddle is not fitting properly
The rider rides with too much tension
The bit is incorrectly fitted
The horse may have TMD
I think there is an issue and it would be naive of anyone not to investigate possible causes.



Sorry what is TMD?
Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2649063 is a reply to message #2649055 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 22:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Finn  
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akubra wrote on Sun, 13 May 2012 22:35

He looks like a big dag with his tongue hanging out Finn, I take he is a bit of a character. Very Happy

I notice he is on the forehand and tilting his head in one of the photos, maybe with the head tilting avoidance there might be something there and worth a bit of investigation.

But needless to say, you are out there having a go and good on you and getting some good results. Very Happy




Thank you Smile

Which photo was that? The blurry one? A few of them were taken from my L2 test where everything was sitting trot which isn't my strongest point atm due to being unfit. He is a big dag and does well to put up with me at times.

I think he will improve after his dentist visit. Was something that just popped into my head regarding the tongue poking. He will be done next week which was the soonest she can come out when i rang last week.
Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2649079 is a reply to message #2649062 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 23:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  martina  is currently offline martina  
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English Rose wrote on Sun, 13 May 2012 22:40

smartmoves wrote on Sun, 13 May 2012 22:09

There are a number of reasons why a horse may put its tongue out the side of its mouth (whilst wearing a bridle and saddle)
The saddle is not fitting properly
The rider rides with too much tension
The bit is incorrectly fitted
The horse may have TMD
I think there is an issue and it would be naive of anyone not to investigate possible causes.



Sorry what is TMD?


Rolls Eyes Me wants to know too ! PLEASE

TMD - The Mental Disorder
TMD - The Mouth Disability
and so on ?! Razz Laughing

Cheers MARTINA

PS: Get the dentist - check on the bit you are using and the boseband - check on your riding .... and the list goes on !!
DON't let it become a habbit !! Confused That's one VERY hard to get rid off !!


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Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2649084 is a reply to message #2649079 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 23:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Finn  
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Bit and noseband are the same as i have been using on him since i got him. Both fit well. Having weekly lessons and don't think it's me.

We'll get there slowly. I'm in no hurry to go out and compete EA.
Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2649103 is a reply to message #2648385 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 23:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  MandyE  
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Out of my way, I am in the midst of a hoo haa monologue
I'm thinking the horse may have some issues with the contact, just quietly.

TMD, I wonder if that means Temporo Mandibular Displacement?

If so, could very well be a reason for the tongue behaviour if all other things were ruled out.


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Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2649104 is a reply to message #2649103 ] Sun, 13 May 2012 23:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Finn  
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MandyE wrote on Sun, 13 May 2012 23:44

I'm thinking the horse may have some issues with the contact, just quietly.

TMD, I wonder if that means Temporo Mandibular Displacement?

If so, could very well be a reason for the tongue behaviour if all other things were ruled out.


Why would you think that?
Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2649124 is a reply to message #2649104 ] Mon, 14 May 2012 00:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Bats79  is currently offline Bats79  
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Horses can put their tongues out for so many reasons. Sometimes it has nothing to do with the rider at the time.

I have a pupil with a STB gelding. She NEVER does anything bad with the contact or the horse's mouth but the horse has been very harshly managed (via the bit) in the past and it only needs to think that something will be difficult for the tongue to come out.

This means that the rider has to learn to actually CORRECT the horse's behaviour when the tongue comes out rather than try to work out what they have done to make the tongue come out.


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Re: Tongue in Dressage. [message #2649127 is a reply to message #2648385 ] Mon, 14 May 2012 00:32 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
  WBS  
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Step away from the computer,
Tongue + Head tilt, I'm going for contact also.

Does he do this for other riders Finn?


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