Home » Vichorse Forum » General - On Topic » Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is?
| Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2678816 is a reply to message #2678805 ] |
Sun, 17 June 2012 17:29   |
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| gdocker wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 17:21 |
Fully accepting that I know very little about western riding and especially western bitting, I do have a question and do not at all mean to start any arguments.
When would a bit like the one above (the big scary-looking spade bit, I mean, not the OP's) be necessary?
I mean, if someone is skilled enough to be popping that in their pony's mouth, then surely they'd be skilled enough with a lesser bit, or be using the rein so rarely that they probably don't need a bit?
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The idea of a spade bit is that, if it's well made and properly balanced, it does a lot of the work for you. The spade on the top of the mouthpiece lays along the palate of the horse and when the horses head is vertical it exerts no pressure. When the horse raises it's head the spade comes into contact with the palate which encourages the horse to drop it's head. So in essence the bit exerts no pressure when the horse is in the correct carriage, encouraging the horse to stay there (negative reinforcement).
Toot toot chugga chugga big red car...
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| Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2678833 is a reply to message #2678816 ] |
Sun, 17 June 2012 17:51 |
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oleanda 
Messages: 118
Registered: May 2010 |
Level 3 |
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| Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 17:29 |
| gdocker wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 17:21 |
Fully accepting that I know very little about western riding and especially western bitting, I do have a question and do not at all mean to start any arguments.
When would a bit like the one above (the big scary-looking spade bit, I mean, not the OP's) be necessary?
I mean, if someone is skilled enough to be popping that in their pony's mouth, then surely they'd be skilled enough with a lesser bit, or be using the rein so rarely that they probably don't need a bit?
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The idea of a spade bit is that, if it's well made and properly balanced, it does a lot of the work for you. The spade on the top of the mouthpiece lays along the palate of the horse and when the horses head is vertical it exerts no pressure. When the horse raises it's head the spade comes into contact with the palate which encourages the horse to drop it's head. So in essence the bit exerts no pressure when the horse is in the correct carriage, encouraging the horse to stay there (negative reinforcement).
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That is just disgusting. How would you like someone to put something on you that held you head in one static position and hurt you if you moved. And you say its not a torture device. Get real.
http://www.medievality.com/heretics-fork.html
So - Its not the skill of the rider they need horrible bits to force the horse into the position they want.
Just the weight of a spade bit exerts pressure.
[Updated on: Sun, 17 June 2012 17:56]
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| Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2678844 is a reply to message #2678816 ] |
Sun, 17 June 2012 18:05 |
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 RhemyElla
Messages: 12193
Registered: March 2008 |
The forum drove me to drink. Remind me to thank it. |
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| Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 17:29 |
| gdocker wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 17:21 |
Fully accepting that I know very little about western riding and especially western bitting, I do have a question and do not at all mean to start any arguments.
When would a bit like the one above (the big scary-looking spade bit, I mean, not the OP's) be necessary?
I mean, if someone is skilled enough to be popping that in their pony's mouth, then surely they'd be skilled enough with a lesser bit, or be using the rein so rarely that they probably don't need a bit?
|
The idea of a spade bit is that, if it's well made and properly balanced, it does a lot of the work for you. The spade on the top of the mouthpiece lays along the palate of the horse and when the horses head is vertical it exerts no pressure. When the horse raises it's head the spade comes into contact with the palate which encourages the horse to drop it's head. So in essence the bit exerts no pressure when the horse is in the correct carriage, encouraging the horse to stay there (negative reinforcement).
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Can you tell me what the copper coil-like things are for? Thanks so much 
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| Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2678851 is a reply to message #2678791 ] |
Sun, 17 June 2012 18:09 |
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oleanda
Messages: 118
Registered: May 2010 |
Level 3 |
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| Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:56 |
| oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:44 |
| Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:34 |
| oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:24 |
I've also searched to see if there are any peer reviewed scientific studies showing that a bit is good for a horse - Cant find any. If you know of one I'd like to read it.
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And I'm willing to bet that there are no studies out there that have proved sitting on a horses back and riding it is good for it either, yet you still ride I'm assuming?
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There have actually and sitting on a horses back is not ideal.BUT look how saddle fitting has become such an issue. Long gone are the days when you go to a saddlery store,sit in a saddle and if it suits you you buy it. No thought about whether its suitable for the horse. These days we've moved past that and go to every effort to ensure our horses have suitable saddles. Then there are the chiro's, therapists, massagers, acupuncturists and all the rest that are used to ensure horses are pain free. So why are bits different. Is not the horses mouth a sensitive area. Should it not be pain free as well. Its simple really.
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I don't think you can really compare the two. Of course you want the horses back to be pain free, but the saddle and girth are not used as motivators the same way as a bit is. As you would realise, when we train horses to obey our aids we are using negative reinforcement. If a horse really wants to do the opposite of what we are asking, sometimes we have to use strong pressure to the point of causing pain to get our point across. I'm not just talking about bits here, we are kidding ourselves if we believe that bitless bridles and halters don't cause pain at times, that's why rope halters are more effective than wide nylon headstalls. I would think the bigger issue here is not the bit in the horses mouth, but using excessive tension on the reins for extended periods of time.
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Please someone save me from so much ignorance. Why the hell do you think its ok to cause a horse pain so you can ride it. With knowledge and understanding horses are trained without pain. Sounds like your fairly young, Emma. I can only hope that you will look logically at all the info on issues with bits and think for yourself as to how you can avoid pain in your relationship with your horse. Your horse will thank you and you will have a much better partnership.
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| Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2678866 is a reply to message #2678825 ] |
Sun, 17 June 2012 18:24 |
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| oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 17:39 |
| Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:45 |
| oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:38 |
| Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:32 |
Robert Cook has a conflict of interest in regards to bitless bridles as he designed his own. Just because a study is peer reviewed and published in an academic journal doesn't mean it's gospel. There is a lot of crap research out there that has been published, you have to be critical when reading it.
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Did you bother to read it. Dr Cook designed the bridle because of the problems with bits. And it was scientific over several years with many horses and properly reviewed. And his is not the only study done.
I guess it depends on which side of the fence you choose to sit as to whether you can see the merit or not in the results.
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Yes I read the Rebecca Brady study, which to me the had many limitations.
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Like what ????
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OK the Manfredi et al (2010) report cited stated that as the pressure increased on the bit so did signs of oral discomfort. The researchers went on to state that these behaviours decrease with less pressure on the reins. This does not prove that bits cause issues, just that excessive pressure on them does, which could be said for anything we put on a horse, including a bitless bridle.
The Quick and Warren Smith (2009) study has a few limitations. One is the small sample size used (four horses) and another is the age of the horses used. The researchers stated that the horses who were trained in a bitless bridle had a lower heart rate than those who wore a bit. Anything we do with a horse that it is not used to can raise it's heart rate, how do we know that their heart rate doesn't go up the first time we put a halter on them and lead them, the first time we saddle them up, the first time we take them to a comp or a rally or a ride out of the paddock or arena? Another finding in that study I found to be debatable is that they found horses that wore the bitless bridle responded to the halt aid quicker than the ones who wore a bit. The aid from the bitless would be more similar to the aid from a halter than the aid from a bit, so it's only natural that a young unschooled horse would respond to that aid quicker.
Cook and Mills (2009), again a small sample size (four horses) and a conflict of interest. It's always best to read the actual studies, that way you can actually read the procedure they used and the results they obtained. The problem with reading referenced work in the body of another report is that the author may have put their own spin on the results to suit their agenda.
I'm not saying these studies cited in this meta analysis don't have merit. I've just been taught to always read studies with a critical eye. And, even though my opinion doesn't actually matter, I've go no issue with bitless bridles, in fact I tried a bitless on a horse I used to own.
Toot toot chugga chugga big red car...
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| Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2678868 is a reply to message #2678851 ] |
Sun, 17 June 2012 18:27 |
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| oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 18:09 |
| Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:56 |
| oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:44 |
| Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:34 |
| oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:24 |
I've also searched to see if there are any peer reviewed scientific studies showing that a bit is good for a horse - Cant find any. If you know of one I'd like to read it.
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And I'm willing to bet that there are no studies out there that have proved sitting on a horses back and riding it is good for it either, yet you still ride I'm assuming?
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There have actually and sitting on a horses back is not ideal.BUT look how saddle fitting has become such an issue. Long gone are the days when you go to a saddlery store,sit in a saddle and if it suits you you buy it. No thought about whether its suitable for the horse. These days we've moved past that and go to every effort to ensure our horses have suitable saddles. Then there are the chiro's, therapists, massagers, acupuncturists and all the rest that are used to ensure horses are pain free. So why are bits different. Is not the horses mouth a sensitive area. Should it not be pain free as well. Its simple really.
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I don't think you can really compare the two. Of course you want the horses back to be pain free, but the saddle and girth are not used as motivators the same way as a bit is. As you would realise, when we train horses to obey our aids we are using negative reinforcement. If a horse really wants to do the opposite of what we are asking, sometimes we have to use strong pressure to the point of causing pain to get our point across. I'm not just talking about bits here, we are kidding ourselves if we believe that bitless bridles and halters don't cause pain at times, that's why rope halters are more effective than wide nylon headstalls. I would think the bigger issue here is not the bit in the horses mouth, but using excessive tension on the reins for extended periods of time.
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Please someone save me from so much ignorance. Why the hell do you think its ok to cause a horse pain so you can ride it. With knowledge and understanding horses are trained without pain. Sounds like your fairly young, Emma. I can only hope that you will look logically at all the info on issues with bits and think for yourself as to how you can avoid pain in your relationship with your horse. Your horse will thank you and you will have a much better partnership.
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There is no need to be so patronising oleanda.
Toot toot chugga chugga big red car...
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| Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679044 is a reply to message #2678851 ] |
Sun, 17 June 2012 21:47 |
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| oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 18:09 |
| Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:56 |
| oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:44 |
| Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:34 |
| oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:24 |
I've also searched to see if there are any peer reviewed scientific studies showing that a bit is good for a horse - Cant find any. If you know of one I'd like to read it.
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And I'm willing to bet that there are no studies out there that have proved sitting on a horses back and riding it is good for it either, yet you still ride I'm assuming?
|
There have actually and sitting on a horses back is not ideal.BUT look how saddle fitting has become such an issue. Long gone are the days when you go to a saddlery store,sit in a saddle and if it suits you you buy it. No thought about whether its suitable for the horse. These days we've moved past that and go to every effort to ensure our horses have suitable saddles. Then there are the chiro's, therapists, massagers, acupuncturists and all the rest that are used to ensure horses are pain free. So why are bits different. Is not the horses mouth a sensitive area. Should it not be pain free as well. Its simple really.
|
I don't think you can really compare the two. Of course you want the horses back to be pain free, but the saddle and girth are not used as motivators the same way as a bit is. As you would realise, when we train horses to obey our aids we are using negative reinforcement. If a horse really wants to do the opposite of what we are asking, sometimes we have to use strong pressure to the point of causing pain to get our point across. I'm not just talking about bits here, we are kidding ourselves if we believe that bitless bridles and halters don't cause pain at times, that's why rope halters are more effective than wide nylon headstalls. I would think the bigger issue here is not the bit in the horses mouth, but using excessive tension on the reins for extended periods of time.
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Please someone save me from so much ignorance. Why the hell do you think its ok to cause a horse pain so you can ride it. With knowledge and understanding horses are trained without pain. Sounds like your fairly young, Emma. I can only hope that you will look logically at all the info on issues with bits and think for yourself as to how you can avoid pain in your relationship with your horse. Your horse will thank you and you will have a much better partnership.
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Couple of questions if I might;
Perhaps you might like to explain how your bitless bridle, which applies pressure at a number of sensitive points, is such an improvement in poorly trained hands over a bitted bridle?
Are there any studies determining nerve response in the differing areas of pressure? i.e. is there any substantiated evidence to support your theory that the bars of the mouth for example are more or less sensitive than the poll or sinus cavities?
Are there any studies showing accurately measured applicaton of pressure at all contact points for both types of bridles?
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.”
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| Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679098 is a reply to message #2679044 ] |
Sun, 17 June 2012 23:07 |
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oleanda
Messages: 118
Registered: May 2010 |
Level 3 |
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| Equivarna wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 21:47 |
| oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 18:09 |
| Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:56 |
| oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:44 |
| Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:34 |
| oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:24 |
I've also searched to see if there are any peer reviewed scientific studies showing that a bit is good for a horse - Cant find any. If you know of one I'd like to read it.
|
And I'm willing to bet that there are no studies out there that have proved sitting on a horses back and riding it is good for it either, yet you still ride I'm assuming?
|
There have actually and sitting on a horses back is not ideal.BUT look how saddle fitting has become such an issue. Long gone are the days when you go to a saddlery store,sit in a saddle and if it suits you you buy it. No thought about whether its suitable for the horse. These days we've moved past that and go to every effort to ensure our horses have suitable saddles. Then there are the chiro's, therapists, massagers, acupuncturists and all the rest that are used to ensure horses are pain free. So why are bits different. Is not the horses mouth a sensitive area. Should it not be pain free as well. Its simple really.
|
I don't think you can really compare the two. Of course you want the horses back to be pain free, but the saddle and girth are not used as motivators the same way as a bit is. As you would realise, when we train horses to obey our aids we are using negative reinforcement. If a horse really wants to do the opposite of what we are asking, sometimes we have to use strong pressure to the point of causing pain to get our point across. I'm not just talking about bits here, we are kidding ourselves if we believe that bitless bridles and halters don't cause pain at times, that's why rope halters are more effective than wide nylon headstalls. I would think the bigger issue here is not the bit in the horses mouth, but using excessive tension on the reins for extended periods of time.
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Please someone save me from so much ignorance. Why the hell do you think its ok to cause a horse pain so you can ride it. With knowledge and understanding horses are trained without pain. Sounds like your fairly young, Emma. I can only hope that you will look logically at all the info on issues with bits and think for yourself as to how you can avoid pain in your relationship with your horse. Your horse will thank you and you will have a much better partnership.
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Couple of questions if I might;
Perhaps you might like to explain how your bitless bridle, which applies pressure at a number of sensitive points, is such an improvement in poorly trained hands over a bitted bridle?
Are there any studies determining nerve response in the differing areas of pressure? i.e. is there any substantiated evidence to support your theory that the bars of the mouth for example are more or less sensitive than the poll or sinus cavities?
Are there any studies showing accurately measured applicaton of pressure at all contact points for both types of bridles?
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One of the links I posted earlier cites pressure.
But you know you dont need studies. You can easily do your own "study'. Put a headcollar on your horse and yank - then put a bit in your horses mouth and yank. Let the horse tell you which one is worse.
Bittless bridles do not interfere with breathing or swallowing
There are several types of bitless bridles. Some far better than others. Rough hands are rough on the horse no matter what but bitless bridles do not have the ability to do the damage a bit does. Certainly a hackamore is far from ideal and I dont like and would never use. Bosals with rigid hosebands are also no good.I dont even like knotted head collars as the knots rest on sensitive nerves. The simple cross under or straight side pull are generally preferred.
How do you handle your horse in a headcollar compared to a bridle. Do you use the same pressure or are you more sensitive with a bit. If you treat the bit more sensitively then I dont need to say anymore. You can exert more force on a headcollar without doing the damage you would if you used the same force on a bit.
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| Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679128 is a reply to message #2679121 ] |
Mon, 18 June 2012 00:43 |
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| Dixie wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 00:05 |
how do you block posts?? fricken nuts.
O, if you had bothered to read any of the links I posted re Vaquero riding, then you wouldn't be asking your dumb arse questions or making your dumb arse ignorant assumptions ,,, but, I guess you have seen the true light.. please follow it as far as it will take you and take your narrow mind with you
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top right corner of their post where it says "ignore all messages from this user"
| Bob Marley said |
I know I'm not perfect and I don't live to be. But, before you start pointing fingers, make sure your hands are clean
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Try not to take it personally, I strongly dislike all humans... now horses, horses I like!
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| Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679141 is a reply to message #2679098 ] |
Mon, 18 June 2012 06:12 |
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| oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 23:07 |
| Equivarna wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 21:47 |
| oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 18:09 |
| Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:56 |
| oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:44 |
| Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:34 |
| oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:24 |
I've also searched to see if there are any peer reviewed scientific studies showing that a bit is good for a horse - Cant find any. If you know of one I'd like to read it.
|
And I'm willing to bet that there are no studies out there that have proved sitting on a horses back and riding it is good for it either, yet you still ride I'm assuming?
|
There have actually and sitting on a horses back is not ideal.BUT look how saddle fitting has become such an issue. Long gone are the days when you go to a saddlery store,sit in a saddle and if it suits you you buy it. No thought about whether its suitable for the horse. These days we've moved past that and go to every effort to ensure our horses have suitable saddles. Then there are the chiro's, therapists, massagers, acupuncturists and all the rest that are used to ensure horses are pain free. So why are bits different. Is not the horses mouth a sensitive area. Should it not be pain free as well. Its simple really.
|
I don't think you can really compare the two. Of course you want the horses back to be pain free, but the saddle and girth are not used as motivators the same way as a bit is. As you would realise, when we train horses to obey our aids we are using negative reinforcement. If a horse really wants to do the opposite of what we are asking, sometimes we have to use strong pressure to the point of causing pain to get our point across. I'm not just talking about bits here, we are kidding ourselves if we believe that bitless bridles and halters don't cause pain at times, that's why rope halters are more effective than wide nylon headstalls. I would think the bigger issue here is not the bit in the horses mouth, but using excessive tension on the reins for extended periods of time.
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Please someone save me from so much ignorance. Why the hell do you think its ok to cause a horse pain so you can ride it. With knowledge and understanding horses are trained without pain. Sounds like your fairly young, Emma. I can only hope that you will look logically at all the info on issues with bits and think for yourself as to how you can avoid pain in your relationship with your horse. Your horse will thank you and you will have a much better partnership.
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Couple of questions if I might;
Perhaps you might like to explain how your bitless bridle, which applies pressure at a number of sensitive points, is such an improvement in poorly trained hands over a bitted bridle?
Are there any studies determining nerve response in the differing areas of pressure? i.e. is there any substantiated evidence to support your theory that the bars of the mouth for example are more or less sensitive than the poll or sinus cavities?
Are there any studies showing accurately measured applicaton of pressure at all contact points for both types of bridles?
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One of the links I posted earlier cites pressure.
But you know you dont need studies. You can easily do your own "study'. Put a headcollar on your horse and yank - then put a bit in your horses mouth and yank. Let the horse tell you which one is worse.
Bittless bridles do not interfere with breathing or swallowing
There are several types of bitless bridles. Some far better than others. Rough hands are rough on the horse no matter what but bitless bridles do not have the ability to do the damage a bit does. Certainly a hackamore is far from ideal and I dont like and would never use. Bosals with rigid hosebands are also no good.I dont even like knotted head collars as the knots rest on sensitive nerves. The simple cross under or straight side pull are generally preferred.
How do you handle your horse in a headcollar compared to a bridle. Do you use the same pressure or are you more sensitive with a bit. If you treat the bit more sensitively then I dont need to say anymore. You can exert more force on a headcollar without doing the damage you would if you used the same force on a bit.
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Don't need studies? You're the one citing studies as proving x, y and z against bits. All worthless unless you prove conclusively that bitless is significantly better and under what circumstances, and I'm talking your vaunted bitless bridles, not a headcollar.
Bitless bridles can apply significant pressure on sensitive parts of the head, even in gentle hands. They do not operate on a system of cloud kisses and feather strokes. What I'm asking, is show us the proof that it is less damaging and less painful in both the long and short term, than a bit, rather than expecting us to blindly swallow the evangelistic rantings of a poisonous tree.
Many years ago doctors believed that expectant Mums and their unborn child would be better off without morning sickness. Thalidomide is just one the solutions to that problem.
[Updated on: Mon, 18 June 2012 06:15]
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.”
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| Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679233 is a reply to message #2679141 ] |
Mon, 18 June 2012 09:19 |
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oleanda
Messages: 118
Registered: May 2010 |
Level 3 |
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[quote title=Equivarna wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 06:12]| oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 23:07 |
| Equivarna wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 21:47 |
| oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 18:09 |
| Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:56 |
| oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:44 |
| Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:34 |
| oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:24 |
I've also searched to see if there are any peer reviewed scientific studies showing that a bit is good for a horse - Cant find any. If you know of one I'd like to read it.
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And I'm willing to bet that there are no studies out there that have proved sitting on a horses back and riding it is good for it either, yet you still ride I'm assuming?
|
There have actually and sitting on a horses back is not ideal.BUT look how saddle fitting has become such an issue. Long gone are the days when you go to a saddlery store,sit in a saddle and if it suits you you buy it. No thought about whether its suitable for the horse. These days we've moved past that and go to every effort to ensure our horses have suitable saddles. Then there are the chiro's, therapists, massagers, acupuncturists and all the rest that are used to ensure horses are pain free. So why are bits different. Is not the horses mouth a sensitive area. Should it not be pain free as well. Its simple really.
|
I don't think you can really compare the two. Of course you want the horses back to be pain free, but the saddle and girth are not used as motivators the same way as a bit is. As you would realise, when we train horses to obey our aids we are using negative reinforcement. If a horse really wants to do the opposite of what we are asking, sometimes we have to use strong pressure to the point of causing pain to get our point across. I'm not just talking about bits here, we are kidding ourselves if we believe that bitless bridles and halters don't cause pain at times, that's why rope halters are more effective than wide nylon headstalls. I would think the bigger issue here is not the bit in the horses mouth, but using excessive tension on the reins for extended periods of time.
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Please someone save me from so much ignorance. Why the hell do you think its ok to cause a horse pain so you can ride it. With knowledge and understanding horses are trained without pain. Sounds like your fairly young, Emma. I can only hope that you will look logically at all the info on issues with bits and think for yourself as to how you can avoid pain in your relationship with your horse. Your horse will thank you and you will have a much better partnership.
|
Couple of questions if I might;
Perhaps you might like to explain how your bitless bridle, which applies pressure at a number of sensitive points, is such an improvement in poorly trained hands over a bitted bridle?
Are there any studies determining nerve response in the differing areas of pressure? i.e. is there any substantiated evidence to support your theory that the bars of the mouth for example are more or less sensitive than the poll or sinus cavities?
Are there any studies showing accurately measured applicaton of pressure at all contact points for both types of bridles?
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One of the links I posted earlier cites pressure.
But you know you dont need studies. You can easily do your own "study'. Put a headcollar on your horse and yank - then put a bit in your horses mouth and yank. Let the horse tell you which one is worse.
Bittless bridles do not interfere with breathing or swallowing
There are several types of bitless bridles. Some far better than others. Rough hands are rough on the horse no matter what but bitless bridles do not have the ability to do the damage a bit does. Certainly a hackamore is far from ideal and I dont like and would never use. Bosals with rigid hosebands are also no good.I dont even like knotted head collars as the knots rest on sensitive nerves. The simple cross under or straight side pull are generally preferred.
How do you handle your horse in a headcollar compared to a bridle. Do you use the same pressure or are you more sensitive with a bit. If you treat the bit more sensitively then I dont need to say anymore. You can exert more force on a headcollar without doing the damage you would if you used the same force on a bit.
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Don't need studies? You're the one citing studies as proving x, y and z against bits. All worthless unless you prove conclusively that bitless is significantly better and under what circumstances, and I'm talking your vaunted bitless bridles, not a headcollar.
Bitless bridles can apply significant pressure on sensitive parts of the head, even in gentle hands. They do not operate on a system of cloud kisses and feather strokes. What I'm asking, is show us the proof that it is less damaging and less painful in both the long and short term, than a bit, rather than expecting us to blindly swallow the evangelistic rantings of a poisonous tree.
Many years ago doctors believed that expectant Mums and their unborn child would be better off without morning sickness. Thalidomide is just one the solutions to that problem.
[/quote
You're right there. Its been believed for years that bits are ok but now its been shown that there are not.
The "proof" is in the reactions of the horse and the many studies that have been done. You simply choose not to believe any of them. More the fool you. I suppose you looked at all the scientific studies done on how good bits are for a horse before you put one in your horses mouth. Impossible because there aren't any such studies.
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| Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679250 is a reply to message #2679233 ] |
Mon, 18 June 2012 09:35 |
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Oleanda, you have admitted that more pressure needs to be applied to get a response when a horse is wearing just a headstall as opposed to a bitted bridle.
MORE pressure. So assuming that is similar when comparing bridles, wouldn't the one that uses LESS pressure to get the required response be better for the horse...i.e bitted bridle??
IF YOU WANT SOMETHING DONE, DO IT YOURSELF.
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| Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679285 is a reply to message #2679233 ] |
Mon, 18 June 2012 10:00 |
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oleanda
Messages: 118
Registered: May 2010 |
Level 3 |
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[quote title=oleanda wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 09:19]| Equivarna wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 06:12 |
| oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 23:07 |
| Equivarna wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 21:47 |
| oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 18:09 |
| Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:56 |
| oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:44 |
| Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:34 |
| oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:24 |
I've also searched to see if there are any peer reviewed scientific studies showing that a bit is good for a horse - Cant find any. If you know of one I'd like to read it.
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And I'm willing to bet that there are no studies out there that have proved sitting on a horses back and riding it is good for it either, yet you still ride I'm assuming?
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There have actually and sitting on a horses back is not ideal.BUT look how saddle fitting has become such an issue. Long gone are the days when you go to a saddlery store,sit in a saddle and if it suits you you buy it. No thought about whether its suitable for the horse. These days we've moved past that and go to every effort to ensure our horses have suitable saddles. Then there are the chiro's, therapists, massagers, acupuncturists and all the rest that are used to ensure horses are pain free. So why are bits different. Is not the horses mouth a sensitive area. Should it not be pain free as well. Its simple really.
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I don't think you can really compare the two. Of course you want the horses back to be pain free, but the saddle and girth are not used as motivators the same way as a bit is. As you would realise, when we train horses to obey our aids we are using negative reinforcement. If a horse really wants to do the opposite of what we are asking, sometimes we have to use strong pressure to the point of causing pain to get our point across. I'm not just talking about bits here, we are kidding ourselves if we believe that bitless bridles and halters don't cause pain at times, that's why rope halters are more effective than wide nylon headstalls. I would think the bigger issue here is not the bit in the horses mouth, but using excessive tension on the reins for extended periods of time.
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Please someone save me from so much ignorance. Why the hell do you think its ok to cause a horse pain so you can ride it. With knowledge and understanding horses are trained without pain. Sounds like your fairly young, Emma. I can only hope that you will look logically at all the info on issues with bits and think for yourself as to how you can avoid pain in your relationship with your horse. Your horse will thank you and you will have a much better partnership.
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Couple of questions if I might;
Perhaps you might like to explain how your bitless bridle, which applies pressure at a number of sensitive points, is such an improvement in poorly trained hands over a bitted bridle?
Are there any studies determining nerve response in the differing areas of pressure? i.e. is there any substantiated evidence to support your theory that the bars of the mouth for example are more or less sensitive than the poll or sinus cavities?
Are there any studies showing accurately measured applicaton of pressure at all contact points for both types of bridles?
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One of the links I posted earlier cites pressure.
But you know you dont need studies. You can easily do your own "study'. Put a headcollar on your horse and yank - then put a bit in your horses mouth and yank. Let the horse tell you which one is worse.
Bittless bridles do not interfere with breathing or swallowing
There are several types of bitless bridles. Some far better than others. Rough hands are rough on the horse no matter what but bitless bridles do not have the ability to do the damage a bit does. Certainly a hackamore is far from ideal and I dont like and would never use. Bosals with rigid hosebands are also no good.I dont even like knotted head collars as the knots rest on sensitive nerves. The simple cross under or straight side pull are generally preferred.
How do you handle your horse in a headcollar compared to a bridle. Do you use the same pressure or are you more sensitive with a bit. If you treat the bit more sensitively then I dont need to say anymore. You can exert more force on a headcollar without doing the damage you would if you used the same force on a bit.
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Don't need studies? You're the one citing studies as proving x, y and z against bits. All worthless unless you prove conclusively that bitless is significantly better and under what circumstances, and I'm talking your vaunted bitless bridles, not a headcollar.
Bitless bridles can apply significant pressure on sensitive parts of the head, even in gentle hands. They do not operate on a system of cloud kisses and feather strokes. What I'm asking, is show us the proof that it is less damaging and less painful in both the long and short term, than a bit, rather than expecting us to blindly swallow the evangelistic rantings of a poisonous tree.
Many years ago doctors believed that expectant Mums and their unborn child would be better off without morning sickness. Thalidomide is just one the solutions to that problem.
[/quote
You're right there. Its been believed for years that bits are ok but now its been shown that there are not.
The "proof" is in the reactions of the horse and the many studies that have been done. Did you look at the links I posted particularly the xrays of what a bit does when used harshly. You only need your own eyes to see that one but maybe your not capable of comprehending what you see. I suppose you looked at all the scientific studies done on how good bits are for a horse before you put one in your horses mouth. Impossible because there aren't any such studies.
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Oh Equivarna, you dont even seem to know that a headcollar can put pressure on the head. They put pressure on the poll or the nose or the side of the face, same as bitless bridles. Absolutely basic. No wonder you cant grasp anything more involved. Did you have to have scientific studies done to prove to you that you can use a headcollar without causing your horse harm. Your reasoning is flawed.
I dont think I'll bother with you anymore. Your too ignorant and obviously want to stay that way.
[Updated on: Mon, 18 June 2012 10:41]
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| Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679661 is a reply to message #2678844 ] |
Mon, 18 June 2012 15:45 |
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susieq 
Messages: 1611
Registered: October 2010
Location: HRTAV |
Completely Insane |
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| RhemyElla wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 18:05 |
| Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 17:29 |
| gdocker wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 17:21 |
Fully accepting that I know very little about western riding and especially western bitting, I do have a question and do not at all mean to start any arguments.
When would a bit like the one above (the big scary-looking spade bit, I mean, not the OP's) be necessary?
I mean, if someone is skilled enough to be popping that in their pony's mouth, then surely they'd be skilled enough with a lesser bit, or be using the rein so rarely that they probably don't need a bit?
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The idea of a spade bit is that, if it's well made and properly balanced, it does a lot of the work for you. The spade on the top of the mouthpiece lays along the palate of the horse and when the horses head is vertical it exerts no pressure. When the horse raises it's head the spade comes into contact with the palate which encourages the horse to drop it's head. So in essence the bit exerts no pressure when the horse is in the correct carriage, encouraging the horse to stay there (negative reinforcement).
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Can you tell me what the copper coil-like things are for? Thanks so much
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RE, they are all so wrapped up in their who's right and who's wrong to answer your question. I TO WANNA KNOW what are the copper coils for??????????
I can pick em but I can't ride em
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| Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679672 is a reply to message #2679661 ] |
Mon, 18 June 2012 15:52 |
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| susieq wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 15:45 |
| RhemyElla wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 18:05 |
| Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 17:29 |
| gdocker wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 17:21 |
Fully accepting that I know very little about western riding and especially western bitting, I do have a question and do not at all mean to start any arguments.
When would a bit like the one above (the big scary-looking spade bit, I mean, not the OP's) be necessary?
I mean, if someone is skilled enough to be popping that in their pony's mouth, then surely they'd be skilled enough with a lesser bit, or be using the rein so rarely that they probably don't need a bit?
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The idea of a spade bit is that, if it's well made and properly balanced, it does a lot of the work for you. The spade on the top of the mouthpiece lays along the palate of the horse and when the horses head is vertical it exerts no pressure. When the horse raises it's head the spade comes into contact with the palate which encourages the horse to drop it's head. So in essence the bit exerts no pressure when the horse is in the correct carriage, encouraging the horse to stay there (negative reinforcement).
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Can you tell me what the copper coil-like things are for? Thanks so much
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RE, they are all so wrapped up in their who's right and who's wrong to answer your question. I TO WANNA KNOW what are the copper coils for??????????
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Sorry I missed this post. The copper wrapped bars are called spacer bars, and I'm assuming they are wrapped in copper for the same reason other bits are made from copper, to encourage salivation.
Toot toot chugga chugga big red car...
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| Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679712 is a reply to message #2679689 ] |
Mon, 18 June 2012 17:00 |
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RE they are sway braces, they swivel and are for left and right signals. They sit on the tongue and in no way pinch the horse.
IF YOU WANT SOMETHING DONE, DO IT YOURSELF.
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| Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679714 is a reply to message #2679689 ] |
Mon, 18 June 2012 17:02 |
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double post oops
[Updated on: Mon, 18 June 2012 17:02]
IF YOU WANT SOMETHING DONE, DO IT YOURSELF.
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| Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679929 is a reply to message #2679233 ] |
Mon, 18 June 2012 19:57 |
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[quote title=oleanda wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 09:19]| Equivarna wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 06:12 |
| oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 23:07 |
| Equivarna wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 21:47 |
| oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 18:09 |
| Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:56 |
| oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:44 |
| Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:34 |
| oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:24 |
I've also searched to see if there are any peer reviewed scientific studies showing that a bit is good for a horse - Cant find any. If you know of one I'd like to read it.
|
And I'm willing to bet that there are no studies out there that have proved sitting on a horses back and riding it is good for it either, yet you still ride I'm assuming?
|
There have actually and sitting on a horses back is not ideal.BUT look how saddle fitting has become such an issue. Long gone are the days when you go to a saddlery store,sit in a saddle and if it suits you you buy it. No thought about whether its suitable for the horse. These days we've moved past that and go to every effort to ensure our horses have suitable saddles. Then there are the chiro's, therapists, massagers, acupuncturists and all the rest that are used to ensure horses are pain free. So why are bits different. Is not the horses mouth a sensitive area. Should it not be pain free as well. Its simple really.
|
I don't think you can really compare the two. Of course you want the horses back to be pain free, but the saddle and girth are not used as motivators the same way as a bit is. As you would realise, when we train horses to obey our aids we are using negative reinforcement. If a horse really wants to do the opposite of what we are asking, sometimes we have to use strong pressure to the point of causing pain to get our point across. I'm not just talking about bits here, we are kidding ourselves if we believe that bitless bridles and halters don't cause pain at times, that's why rope halters are more effective than wide nylon headstalls. I would think the bigger issue here is not the bit in the horses mouth, but using excessive tension on the reins for extended periods of time.
|
Please someone save me from so much ignorance. Why the hell do you think its ok to cause a horse pain so you can ride it. With knowledge and understanding horses are trained without pain. Sounds like your fairly young, Emma. I can only hope that you will look logically at all the info on issues with bits and think for yourself as to how you can avoid pain in your relationship with your horse. Your horse will thank you and you will have a much better partnership.
|
Couple of questions if I might;
Perhaps you might like to explain how your bitless bridle, which applies pressure at a number of sensitive points, is such an improvement in poorly trained hands over a bitted bridle?
Are there any studies determining nerve response in the differing areas of pressure? i.e. is there any substantiated evidence to support your theory that the bars of the mouth for example are more or less sensitive than the poll or sinus cavities?
Are there any studies showing accurately measured applicaton of pressure at all contact points for both types of bridles?
|
One of the links I posted earlier cites pressure.
But you know you dont need studies. You can easily do your own "study'. Put a headcollar on your horse and yank - then put a bit in your horses mouth and yank. Let the horse tell you which one is worse.
Bittless bridles do not interfere with breathing or swallowing
There are several types of bitless bridles. Some far better than others. Rough hands are rough on the horse no matter what but bitless bridles do not have the ability to do the damage a bit does. Certainly a hackamore is far from ideal and I dont like and would never use. Bosals with rigid hosebands are also no good.I dont even like knotted head collars as the knots rest on sensitive nerves. The simple cross under or straight side pull are generally preferred.
How do you handle your horse in a headcollar compared to a bridle. Do you use the same pressure or are you more sensitive with a bit. If you treat the bit more sensitively then I dont need to say anymore. You can exert more force on a headcollar without doing the damage you would if you used the same force on a bit.
|
Don't need studies? You're the one citing studies as proving x, y and z against bits. All worthless unless you prove conclusively that bitless is significantly better and under what circumstances, and I'm talking your vaunted bitless bridles, not a headcollar.
Bitless bridles can apply significant pressure on sensitive parts of the head, even in gentle hands. They do not operate on a system of cloud kisses and feather strokes. What I'm asking, is show us the proof that it is less damaging and less painful in both the long and short term, than a bit, rather than expecting us to blindly swallow the evangelistic rantings of a poisonous tree.
Many years ago doctors believed that expectant Mums and their unborn child would be better off without morning sickness. Thalidomide is just one the solutions to that problem.
[/quote
You're right there. Its been believed for years that bits are ok but now its been shown that there are not.
The "proof" is in the reactions of the horse and the many studies that have been done. You simply choose not to believe any of them. More the fool you. I suppose you looked at all the scientific studies done on how good bits are for a horse before you put one in your horses mouth. Impossible because there aren't any such studies.
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Why would you assume that a/ I'm an unbeliever and b/ a fool. I may actually be on your side. All I have asked for is proof that a bitless bridle isn't as bad or worse than a bit, rather than supposition?
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.”
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| Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2680319 is a reply to message #2680273 ] |
Tue, 19 June 2012 09:38 |
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I tend to agree with you Oleanda in regards to the video...You can't just put a bitless bridle on a horse and expect the horse to understand what you want from it. (Particularly one like in the video that already has issues).
They are stopping the horse in the exact same spot every time too, and basically all look like amateurs.
IF YOU WANT SOMETHING DONE, DO IT YOURSELF.
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I just can't fathom how a spade bit could be comfortable - I know I sure as heck wouldn't like it in my mouth! lol 
