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Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2678816 is a reply to message #2678805 ] Sun, 17 June 2012 17:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Emma  
Messages: 9234
Registered: October 2005
Location: Yarrawonga
Its my party and I'll hoo haa if I want to

gdocker wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 17:21

Fully accepting that I know very little about western riding and especially western bitting, I do have a question and do not at all mean to start any arguments.

When would a bit like the one above (the big scary-looking spade bit, I mean, not the OP's) be necessary?

I mean, if someone is skilled enough to be popping that in their pony's mouth, then surely they'd be skilled enough with a lesser bit, or be using the rein so rarely that they probably don't need a bit?



The idea of a spade bit is that, if it's well made and properly balanced, it does a lot of the work for you. The spade on the top of the mouthpiece lays along the palate of the horse and when the horses head is vertical it exerts no pressure. When the horse raises it's head the spade comes into contact with the palate which encourages the horse to drop it's head. So in essence the bit exerts no pressure when the horse is in the correct carriage, encouraging the horse to stay there (negative reinforcement).


Toot toot chugga chugga big red car...
Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2678825 is a reply to message #2678787 ] Sun, 17 June 2012 17:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  oleanda  
Messages: 118
Registered: May 2010
Level 3
Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:45

oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:38

Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:32

Robert Cook has a conflict of interest in regards to bitless bridles as he designed his own. Just because a study is peer reviewed and published in an academic journal doesn't mean it's gospel. There is a lot of crap research out there that has been published, you have to be critical when reading it.


Did you bother to read it. Dr Cook designed the bridle because of the problems with bits. And it was scientific over several years with many horses and properly reviewed. And his is not the only study done.

I guess it depends on which side of the fence you choose to sit as to whether you can see the merit or not in the results.


Yes I read the Rebecca Brady study, which to me the had many limitations.


Like what ????
Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2678833 is a reply to message #2678816 ] Sun, 17 June 2012 17:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  oleanda  
Messages: 118
Registered: May 2010
Level 3
Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 17:29

gdocker wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 17:21

Fully accepting that I know very little about western riding and especially western bitting, I do have a question and do not at all mean to start any arguments.

When would a bit like the one above (the big scary-looking spade bit, I mean, not the OP's) be necessary?

I mean, if someone is skilled enough to be popping that in their pony's mouth, then surely they'd be skilled enough with a lesser bit, or be using the rein so rarely that they probably don't need a bit?



The idea of a spade bit is that, if it's well made and properly balanced, it does a lot of the work for you. The spade on the top of the mouthpiece lays along the palate of the horse and when the horses head is vertical it exerts no pressure. When the horse raises it's head the spade comes into contact with the palate which encourages the horse to drop it's head. So in essence the bit exerts no pressure when the horse is in the correct carriage, encouraging the horse to stay there (negative reinforcement).


That is just disgusting. How would you like someone to put something on you that held you head in one static position and hurt you if you moved. And you say its not a torture device. Get real.
http://www.medievality.com/heretics-fork.html

So - Its not the skill of the rider they need horrible bits to force the horse into the position they want.


Just the weight of a spade bit exerts pressure.

[Updated on: Sun, 17 June 2012 17:56]

Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2678844 is a reply to message #2678816 ] Sun, 17 June 2012 18:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  RhemyElla  is currently offline RhemyElla  
Messages: 12726
Registered: March 2008
The forum drove me to drink. Remind me to thank it.
Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 17:29

gdocker wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 17:21

Fully accepting that I know very little about western riding and especially western bitting, I do have a question and do not at all mean to start any arguments.

When would a bit like the one above (the big scary-looking spade bit, I mean, not the OP's) be necessary?

I mean, if someone is skilled enough to be popping that in their pony's mouth, then surely they'd be skilled enough with a lesser bit, or be using the rein so rarely that they probably don't need a bit?



The idea of a spade bit is that, if it's well made and properly balanced, it does a lot of the work for you. The spade on the top of the mouthpiece lays along the palate of the horse and when the horses head is vertical it exerts no pressure. When the horse raises it's head the spade comes into contact with the palate which encourages the horse to drop it's head. So in essence the bit exerts no pressure when the horse is in the correct carriage, encouraging the horse to stay there (negative reinforcement).

Can you tell me what the copper coil-like things are for? Thanks so much Smile Smile Smile
Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2678849 is a reply to message #2676721 ] Sun, 17 June 2012 18:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  susieq  
Messages: 3194
Registered: October 2010
Location: HRTAV
Troppo. Loco. Round the twist.
As much as I find these bits visualy beautiful there is no pharken way I would stick one in my horses mouth. I have often wondered how the cowboys got their stopping power, now I know.


I can pick em but I can't ride em
Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2678851 is a reply to message #2678791 ] Sun, 17 June 2012 18:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  oleanda  
Messages: 118
Registered: May 2010
Level 3
Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:56

oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:44

Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:34

oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:24


I've also searched to see if there are any peer reviewed scientific studies showing that a bit is good for a horse - Cant find any. If you know of one I'd like to read it.

And I'm willing to bet that there are no studies out there that have proved sitting on a horses back and riding it is good for it either, yet you still ride I'm assuming?


There have actually and sitting on a horses back is not ideal.BUT look how saddle fitting has become such an issue. Long gone are the days when you go to a saddlery store,sit in a saddle and if it suits you you buy it. No thought about whether its suitable for the horse. These days we've moved past that and go to every effort to ensure our horses have suitable saddles. Then there are the chiro's, therapists, massagers, acupuncturists and all the rest that are used to ensure horses are pain free. So why are bits different. Is not the horses mouth a sensitive area. Should it not be pain free as well. Its simple really.


I don't think you can really compare the two. Of course you want the horses back to be pain free, but the saddle and girth are not used as motivators the same way as a bit is. As you would realise, when we train horses to obey our aids we are using negative reinforcement. If a horse really wants to do the opposite of what we are asking, sometimes we have to use strong pressure to the point of causing pain to get our point across. I'm not just talking about bits here, we are kidding ourselves if we believe that bitless bridles and halters don't cause pain at times, that's why rope halters are more effective than wide nylon headstalls. I would think the bigger issue here is not the bit in the horses mouth, but using excessive tension on the reins for extended periods of time.


Please someone save me from so much ignorance. Why the hell do you think its ok to cause a horse pain so you can ride it. With knowledge and understanding horses are trained without pain. Sounds like your fairly young, Emma. I can only hope that you will look logically at all the info on issues with bits and think for yourself as to how you can avoid pain in your relationship with your horse. Your horse will thank you and you will have a much better partnership.
Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2678855 is a reply to message #2678844 ] Sun, 17 June 2012 18:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  taylorboy  
Messages: 382
Registered: May 2012
Level 1
lets see a device that causes harm as in spike and sharp....

is compared to some thing that causes no harm... when a horse is in self carriage.... which is a way humans mould a horse to save it back and muscles from injury... by using stomach muscles to carry the weight... and hold up the load... of the rider....

do you not ride and expect your horse to carry weight... mine do not carry weight...
Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2678860 is a reply to message #2678795 ] Sun, 17 June 2012 18:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  oleanda  
Messages: 118
Registered: May 2010
Level 3
Russinka wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:58

oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:32

RhemyElla wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:05

Bats79 wrote on Sat, 16 June 2012 22:41



http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m225/Reata2007/MySpade.jpg

Wow....


Now that is one fancy piece of torture equipment. How anyone could even contemplate putting that "thing" into the sensitive mouth of a beautiful horse is beyond my understanding. I thought our society was better than that.



That "torture equipement" in the hands of HIGHLY SKILLED RIDER on a WELL TRAINED HORSE is to a snaffle what whispering in a persons ear is to screaming in their ear.




Any pressure on the reins or the horse moving their head out of the "right" position would cause that disgusting spade thingy to dig into the soft palate. Horrible, harmful and painful

No wonder western horses carry their heads so low.

Western riding is getting more and more appalling.

[Updated on: Sun, 17 June 2012 18:26]

Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2678866 is a reply to message #2678825 ] Sun, 17 June 2012 18:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Emma  
Messages: 9234
Registered: October 2005
Location: Yarrawonga
Its my party and I'll hoo haa if I want to

oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 17:39

Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:45

oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:38

Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:32

Robert Cook has a conflict of interest in regards to bitless bridles as he designed his own. Just because a study is peer reviewed and published in an academic journal doesn't mean it's gospel. There is a lot of crap research out there that has been published, you have to be critical when reading it.


Did you bother to read it. Dr Cook designed the bridle because of the problems with bits. And it was scientific over several years with many horses and properly reviewed. And his is not the only study done.

I guess it depends on which side of the fence you choose to sit as to whether you can see the merit or not in the results.


Yes I read the Rebecca Brady study, which to me the had many limitations.


Like what ????

OK the Manfredi et al (2010) report cited stated that as the pressure increased on the bit so did signs of oral discomfort. The researchers went on to state that these behaviours decrease with less pressure on the reins. This does not prove that bits cause issues, just that excessive pressure on them does, which could be said for anything we put on a horse, including a bitless bridle.

The Quick and Warren Smith (2009) study has a few limitations. One is the small sample size used (four horses) and another is the age of the horses used. The researchers stated that the horses who were trained in a bitless bridle had a lower heart rate than those who wore a bit. Anything we do with a horse that it is not used to can raise it's heart rate, how do we know that their heart rate doesn't go up the first time we put a halter on them and lead them, the first time we saddle them up, the first time we take them to a comp or a rally or a ride out of the paddock or arena? Another finding in that study I found to be debatable is that they found horses that wore the bitless bridle responded to the halt aid quicker than the ones who wore a bit. The aid from the bitless would be more similar to the aid from a halter than the aid from a bit, so it's only natural that a young unschooled horse would respond to that aid quicker.

Cook and Mills (2009), again a small sample size (four horses) and a conflict of interest. It's always best to read the actual studies, that way you can actually read the procedure they used and the results they obtained. The problem with reading referenced work in the body of another report is that the author may have put their own spin on the results to suit their agenda.

I'm not saying these studies cited in this meta analysis don't have merit. I've just been taught to always read studies with a critical eye. And, even though my opinion doesn't actually matter, I've go no issue with bitless bridles, in fact I tried a bitless on a horse I used to own.


Toot toot chugga chugga big red car...
Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2678868 is a reply to message #2678851 ] Sun, 17 June 2012 18:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Emma  
Messages: 9234
Registered: October 2005
Location: Yarrawonga
Its my party and I'll hoo haa if I want to

oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 18:09

Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:56

oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:44

Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:34

oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:24


I've also searched to see if there are any peer reviewed scientific studies showing that a bit is good for a horse - Cant find any. If you know of one I'd like to read it.

And I'm willing to bet that there are no studies out there that have proved sitting on a horses back and riding it is good for it either, yet you still ride I'm assuming?


There have actually and sitting on a horses back is not ideal.BUT look how saddle fitting has become such an issue. Long gone are the days when you go to a saddlery store,sit in a saddle and if it suits you you buy it. No thought about whether its suitable for the horse. These days we've moved past that and go to every effort to ensure our horses have suitable saddles. Then there are the chiro's, therapists, massagers, acupuncturists and all the rest that are used to ensure horses are pain free. So why are bits different. Is not the horses mouth a sensitive area. Should it not be pain free as well. Its simple really.


I don't think you can really compare the two. Of course you want the horses back to be pain free, but the saddle and girth are not used as motivators the same way as a bit is. As you would realise, when we train horses to obey our aids we are using negative reinforcement. If a horse really wants to do the opposite of what we are asking, sometimes we have to use strong pressure to the point of causing pain to get our point across. I'm not just talking about bits here, we are kidding ourselves if we believe that bitless bridles and halters don't cause pain at times, that's why rope halters are more effective than wide nylon headstalls. I would think the bigger issue here is not the bit in the horses mouth, but using excessive tension on the reins for extended periods of time.


Please someone save me from so much ignorance. Why the hell do you think its ok to cause a horse pain so you can ride it. With knowledge and understanding horses are trained without pain. Sounds like your fairly young, Emma. I can only hope that you will look logically at all the info on issues with bits and think for yourself as to how you can avoid pain in your relationship with your horse. Your horse will thank you and you will have a much better partnership.

There is no need to be so patronising oleanda.


Toot toot chugga chugga big red car...
Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2678874 is a reply to message #2676721 ] Sun, 17 June 2012 18:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  learns4life  is currently offline learns4life  
Messages: 5115
Registered: December 2007
Step away from the computer,
FFS Emma just block her, there's no need to feed that troll Rolls Eyes


Bob Marley said

I know I'm not perfect and I don't live to be. But, before you start pointing fingers, make sure your hands are clean


Try not to take it personally, I strongly dislike all humans... now horses, horses I like!
Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2678896 is a reply to message #2678874 ] Sun, 17 June 2012 18:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Emma  
Messages: 9234
Registered: October 2005
Location: Yarrawonga
Its my party and I'll hoo haa if I want to

learns4life wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 18:30

FFS Emma just block her, there's no need to feed that troll Rolls Eyes

I'm actually enjoying this. Laughing


Toot toot chugga chugga big red car...
Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2678918 is a reply to message #2678874 ] Sun, 17 June 2012 19:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  oleanda  
Messages: 118
Registered: May 2010
Level 3
learns4life wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 18:30

FFS Emma just block her, there's no need to feed that troll Rolls Eyes


Gee your back learns4life. Couldn't resist could you.

Glad your having fun Emma. Shame you cant see that bits are "not fun" for horses

Actually its been wonderful not having all my usual opponents posting. They've all got me blocked. Much, much better.Gives others a better chance to makeup their own minds re bits without all the usual "mob" butting in.
Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2678926 is a reply to message #2678918 ] Sun, 17 June 2012 19:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Emma  
Messages: 9234
Registered: October 2005
Location: Yarrawonga
Its my party and I'll hoo haa if I want to

oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 19:09

learns4life wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 18:30

FFS Emma just block her, there's no need to feed that troll Rolls Eyes


Gee your back learns4life. Couldn't resist could you.

Glad your having fun Emma. Shame you cant see that bits are "not fun" for horses

Actually its been wonderful not having all my usual opponents posting. They've all got me blocked. Much, much better.Gives others a better chance to makeup their own minds re bits without all the usual "mob" butting in.

I'd hardly say being ridden is fun for horses.


Toot toot chugga chugga big red car...
Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679044 is a reply to message #2678851 ] Sun, 17 June 2012 21:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Equivarna  
Messages: 12879
Registered: November 2006
Location: Misogynists incorporated
The forum drove me to drink. Remind me to thank it.
oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 18:09

Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:56

oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:44

Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:34

oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:24


I've also searched to see if there are any peer reviewed scientific studies showing that a bit is good for a horse - Cant find any. If you know of one I'd like to read it.

And I'm willing to bet that there are no studies out there that have proved sitting on a horses back and riding it is good for it either, yet you still ride I'm assuming?


There have actually and sitting on a horses back is not ideal.BUT look how saddle fitting has become such an issue. Long gone are the days when you go to a saddlery store,sit in a saddle and if it suits you you buy it. No thought about whether its suitable for the horse. These days we've moved past that and go to every effort to ensure our horses have suitable saddles. Then there are the chiro's, therapists, massagers, acupuncturists and all the rest that are used to ensure horses are pain free. So why are bits different. Is not the horses mouth a sensitive area. Should it not be pain free as well. Its simple really.


I don't think you can really compare the two. Of course you want the horses back to be pain free, but the saddle and girth are not used as motivators the same way as a bit is. As you would realise, when we train horses to obey our aids we are using negative reinforcement. If a horse really wants to do the opposite of what we are asking, sometimes we have to use strong pressure to the point of causing pain to get our point across. I'm not just talking about bits here, we are kidding ourselves if we believe that bitless bridles and halters don't cause pain at times, that's why rope halters are more effective than wide nylon headstalls. I would think the bigger issue here is not the bit in the horses mouth, but using excessive tension on the reins for extended periods of time.


Please someone save me from so much ignorance. Why the hell do you think its ok to cause a horse pain so you can ride it. With knowledge and understanding horses are trained without pain. Sounds like your fairly young, Emma. I can only hope that you will look logically at all the info on issues with bits and think for yourself as to how you can avoid pain in your relationship with your horse. Your horse will thank you and you will have a much better partnership.


Couple of questions if I might;

Perhaps you might like to explain how your bitless bridle, which applies pressure at a number of sensitive points, is such an improvement in poorly trained hands over a bitted bridle?

Are there any studies determining nerve response in the differing areas of pressure? i.e. is there any substantiated evidence to support your theory that the bars of the mouth for example are more or less sensitive than the poll or sinus cavities?

Are there any studies showing accurately measured applicaton of pressure at all contact points for both types of bridles?


If a man says something in the forest, and no woman is there to hear him; is he still wrong?
Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679098 is a reply to message #2679044 ] Sun, 17 June 2012 23:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  oleanda  
Messages: 118
Registered: May 2010
Level 3
Equivarna wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 21:47

oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 18:09

Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:56

oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:44

Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:34

oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:24


I've also searched to see if there are any peer reviewed scientific studies showing that a bit is good for a horse - Cant find any. If you know of one I'd like to read it.

And I'm willing to bet that there are no studies out there that have proved sitting on a horses back and riding it is good for it either, yet you still ride I'm assuming?


There have actually and sitting on a horses back is not ideal.BUT look how saddle fitting has become such an issue. Long gone are the days when you go to a saddlery store,sit in a saddle and if it suits you you buy it. No thought about whether its suitable for the horse. These days we've moved past that and go to every effort to ensure our horses have suitable saddles. Then there are the chiro's, therapists, massagers, acupuncturists and all the rest that are used to ensure horses are pain free. So why are bits different. Is not the horses mouth a sensitive area. Should it not be pain free as well. Its simple really.


I don't think you can really compare the two. Of course you want the horses back to be pain free, but the saddle and girth are not used as motivators the same way as a bit is. As you would realise, when we train horses to obey our aids we are using negative reinforcement. If a horse really wants to do the opposite of what we are asking, sometimes we have to use strong pressure to the point of causing pain to get our point across. I'm not just talking about bits here, we are kidding ourselves if we believe that bitless bridles and halters don't cause pain at times, that's why rope halters are more effective than wide nylon headstalls. I would think the bigger issue here is not the bit in the horses mouth, but using excessive tension on the reins for extended periods of time.


Please someone save me from so much ignorance. Why the hell do you think its ok to cause a horse pain so you can ride it. With knowledge and understanding horses are trained without pain. Sounds like your fairly young, Emma. I can only hope that you will look logically at all the info on issues with bits and think for yourself as to how you can avoid pain in your relationship with your horse. Your horse will thank you and you will have a much better partnership.


Couple of questions if I might;

Perhaps you might like to explain how your bitless bridle, which applies pressure at a number of sensitive points, is such an improvement in poorly trained hands over a bitted bridle?

Are there any studies determining nerve response in the differing areas of pressure? i.e. is there any substantiated evidence to support your theory that the bars of the mouth for example are more or less sensitive than the poll or sinus cavities?

Are there any studies showing accurately measured applicaton of pressure at all contact points for both types of bridles?


One of the links I posted earlier cites pressure.

But you know you dont need studies. You can easily do your own "study'. Put a headcollar on your horse and yank - then put a bit in your horses mouth and yank. Let the horse tell you which one is worse.

Bittless bridles do not interfere with breathing or swallowing

There are several types of bitless bridles. Some far better than others. Rough hands are rough on the horse no matter what but bitless bridles do not have the ability to do the damage a bit does. Certainly a hackamore is far from ideal and I dont like and would never use. Bosals with rigid hosebands are also no good.I dont even like knotted head collars as the knots rest on sensitive nerves. The simple cross under or straight side pull are generally preferred.

How do you handle your horse in a headcollar compared to a bridle. Do you use the same pressure or are you more sensitive with a bit. If you treat the bit more sensitively then I dont need to say anymore. You can exert more force on a headcollar without doing the damage you would if you used the same force on a bit.




Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679108 is a reply to message #2678896 ] Sun, 17 June 2012 23:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Mirrhi  
Messages: 3920
Registered: March 2008
Location: West Gippsland
Step away from the computer,
Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 18:44

learns4life wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 18:30

FFS Emma just block her, there's no need to feed that troll Rolls Eyes

I'm actually enjoying this. Laughing


I did too Emma. Very Happy

Most load of codswallup Ive read in years Oleander. Rolls Eyes

Sure your not a JW ? You have just as much conviction about this as they do about the lions and the lambs laying down and eating grass together. Laughing


Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679121 is a reply to message #2679108 ] Mon, 18 June 2012 00:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Dixie  is currently offline Dixie  
Messages: 744
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Level 1 - Advanced
how do you block posts?? fricken nuts.

O, if you had bothered to read any of the links I posted re Vaquero riding, then you wouldn't be asking your dumb arse questions or making your dumb arse ignorant assumptions ,,, but, I guess you have seen the true light.. please follow it as far as it will take you and take your narrow mind with you Smile
Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679128 is a reply to message #2679121 ] Mon, 18 June 2012 00:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  learns4life  is currently offline learns4life  
Messages: 5115
Registered: December 2007
Step away from the computer,
Dixie wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 00:05

how do you block posts?? fricken nuts.

O, if you had bothered to read any of the links I posted re Vaquero riding, then you wouldn't be asking your dumb arse questions or making your dumb arse ignorant assumptions ,,, but, I guess you have seen the true light.. please follow it as far as it will take you and take your narrow mind with you Smile


top right corner of their post where it says "ignore all messages from this user"

Very Happy

index.php?t=getfile&id=515215&private=0


Bob Marley said

I know I'm not perfect and I don't live to be. But, before you start pointing fingers, make sure your hands are clean


Try not to take it personally, I strongly dislike all humans... now horses, horses I like!
Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679141 is a reply to message #2679098 ] Mon, 18 June 2012 06:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Equivarna  
Messages: 12879
Registered: November 2006
Location: Misogynists incorporated
The forum drove me to drink. Remind me to thank it.
oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 23:07

Equivarna wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 21:47

oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 18:09

Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:56

oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:44

Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:34

oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:24


I've also searched to see if there are any peer reviewed scientific studies showing that a bit is good for a horse - Cant find any. If you know of one I'd like to read it.

And I'm willing to bet that there are no studies out there that have proved sitting on a horses back and riding it is good for it either, yet you still ride I'm assuming?


There have actually and sitting on a horses back is not ideal.BUT look how saddle fitting has become such an issue. Long gone are the days when you go to a saddlery store,sit in a saddle and if it suits you you buy it. No thought about whether its suitable for the horse. These days we've moved past that and go to every effort to ensure our horses have suitable saddles. Then there are the chiro's, therapists, massagers, acupuncturists and all the rest that are used to ensure horses are pain free. So why are bits different. Is not the horses mouth a sensitive area. Should it not be pain free as well. Its simple really.


I don't think you can really compare the two. Of course you want the horses back to be pain free, but the saddle and girth are not used as motivators the same way as a bit is. As you would realise, when we train horses to obey our aids we are using negative reinforcement. If a horse really wants to do the opposite of what we are asking, sometimes we have to use strong pressure to the point of causing pain to get our point across. I'm not just talking about bits here, we are kidding ourselves if we believe that bitless bridles and halters don't cause pain at times, that's why rope halters are more effective than wide nylon headstalls. I would think the bigger issue here is not the bit in the horses mouth, but using excessive tension on the reins for extended periods of time.


Please someone save me from so much ignorance. Why the hell do you think its ok to cause a horse pain so you can ride it. With knowledge and understanding horses are trained without pain. Sounds like your fairly young, Emma. I can only hope that you will look logically at all the info on issues with bits and think for yourself as to how you can avoid pain in your relationship with your horse. Your horse will thank you and you will have a much better partnership.


Couple of questions if I might;

Perhaps you might like to explain how your bitless bridle, which applies pressure at a number of sensitive points, is such an improvement in poorly trained hands over a bitted bridle?

Are there any studies determining nerve response in the differing areas of pressure? i.e. is there any substantiated evidence to support your theory that the bars of the mouth for example are more or less sensitive than the poll or sinus cavities?

Are there any studies showing accurately measured applicaton of pressure at all contact points for both types of bridles?


One of the links I posted earlier cites pressure.

But you know you dont need studies. You can easily do your own "study'. Put a headcollar on your horse and yank - then put a bit in your horses mouth and yank. Let the horse tell you which one is worse.

Bittless bridles do not interfere with breathing or swallowing

There are several types of bitless bridles. Some far better than others. Rough hands are rough on the horse no matter what but bitless bridles do not have the ability to do the damage a bit does. Certainly a hackamore is far from ideal and I dont like and would never use. Bosals with rigid hosebands are also no good.I dont even like knotted head collars as the knots rest on sensitive nerves. The simple cross under or straight side pull are generally preferred.

How do you handle your horse in a headcollar compared to a bridle. Do you use the same pressure or are you more sensitive with a bit. If you treat the bit more sensitively then I dont need to say anymore. You can exert more force on a headcollar without doing the damage you would if you used the same force on a bit.






Don't need studies? You're the one citing studies as proving x, y and z against bits. All worthless unless you prove conclusively that bitless is significantly better and under what circumstances, and I'm talking your vaunted bitless bridles, not a headcollar.

Bitless bridles can apply significant pressure on sensitive parts of the head, even in gentle hands. They do not operate on a system of cloud kisses and feather strokes. What I'm asking, is show us the proof that it is less damaging and less painful in both the long and short term, than a bit, rather than expecting us to blindly swallow the evangelistic rantings of a poisonous tree.

Many years ago doctors believed that expectant Mums and their unborn child would be better off without morning sickness. Thalidomide is just one the solutions to that problem.

[Updated on: Mon, 18 June 2012 06:15]


If a man says something in the forest, and no woman is there to hear him; is he still wrong?
Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679233 is a reply to message #2679141 ] Mon, 18 June 2012 09:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  oleanda  
Messages: 118
Registered: May 2010
Level 3
[quote title=Equivarna wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 06:12]
oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 23:07

Equivarna wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 21:47

oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 18:09

Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:56

oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:44

Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:34

oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:24


I've also searched to see if there are any peer reviewed scientific studies showing that a bit is good for a horse - Cant find any. If you know of one I'd like to read it.

And I'm willing to bet that there are no studies out there that have proved sitting on a horses back and riding it is good for it either, yet you still ride I'm assuming?


There have actually and sitting on a horses back is not ideal.BUT look how saddle fitting has become such an issue. Long gone are the days when you go to a saddlery store,sit in a saddle and if it suits you you buy it. No thought about whether its suitable for the horse. These days we've moved past that and go to every effort to ensure our horses have suitable saddles. Then there are the chiro's, therapists, massagers, acupuncturists and all the rest that are used to ensure horses are pain free. So why are bits different. Is not the horses mouth a sensitive area. Should it not be pain free as well. Its simple really.


I don't think you can really compare the two. Of course you want the horses back to be pain free, but the saddle and girth are not used as motivators the same way as a bit is. As you would realise, when we train horses to obey our aids we are using negative reinforcement. If a horse really wants to do the opposite of what we are asking, sometimes we have to use strong pressure to the point of causing pain to get our point across. I'm not just talking about bits here, we are kidding ourselves if we believe that bitless bridles and halters don't cause pain at times, that's why rope halters are more effective than wide nylon headstalls. I would think the bigger issue here is not the bit in the horses mouth, but using excessive tension on the reins for extended periods of time.


Please someone save me from so much ignorance. Why the hell do you think its ok to cause a horse pain so you can ride it. With knowledge and understanding horses are trained without pain. Sounds like your fairly young, Emma. I can only hope that you will look logically at all the info on issues with bits and think for yourself as to how you can avoid pain in your relationship with your horse. Your horse will thank you and you will have a much better partnership.


Couple of questions if I might;

Perhaps you might like to explain how your bitless bridle, which applies pressure at a number of sensitive points, is such an improvement in poorly trained hands over a bitted bridle?

Are there any studies determining nerve response in the differing areas of pressure? i.e. is there any substantiated evidence to support your theory that the bars of the mouth for example are more or less sensitive than the poll or sinus cavities?

Are there any studies showing accurately measured applicaton of pressure at all contact points for both types of bridles?


One of the links I posted earlier cites pressure.

But you know you dont need studies. You can easily do your own "study'. Put a headcollar on your horse and yank - then put a bit in your horses mouth and yank. Let the horse tell you which one is worse.

Bittless bridles do not interfere with breathing or swallowing

There are several types of bitless bridles. Some far better than others. Rough hands are rough on the horse no matter what but bitless bridles do not have the ability to do the damage a bit does. Certainly a hackamore is far from ideal and I dont like and would never use. Bosals with rigid hosebands are also no good.I dont even like knotted head collars as the knots rest on sensitive nerves. The simple cross under or straight side pull are generally preferred.

How do you handle your horse in a headcollar compared to a bridle. Do you use the same pressure or are you more sensitive with a bit. If you treat the bit more sensitively then I dont need to say anymore. You can exert more force on a headcollar without doing the damage you would if you used the same force on a bit.






Don't need studies? You're the one citing studies as proving x, y and z against bits. All worthless unless you prove conclusively that bitless is significantly better and under what circumstances, and I'm talking your vaunted bitless bridles, not a headcollar.

Bitless bridles can apply significant pressure on sensitive parts of the head, even in gentle hands. They do not operate on a system of cloud kisses and feather strokes. What I'm asking, is show us the proof that it is less damaging and less painful in both the long and short term, than a bit, rather than expecting us to blindly swallow the evangelistic rantings of a poisonous tree.

Many years ago doctors believed that expectant Mums and their unborn child would be better off without morning sickness. Thalidomide is just one the solutions to that problem.
[/quote


You're right there. Its been believed for years that bits are ok but now its been shown that there are not.

The "proof" is in the reactions of the horse and the many studies that have been done. You simply choose not to believe any of them. More the fool you. I suppose you looked at all the scientific studies done on how good bits are for a horse before you put one in your horses mouth. Impossible because there aren't any such studies.




Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679250 is a reply to message #2679233 ] Mon, 18 June 2012 09:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  artepko  
Messages: 1686
Registered: June 2010
Completely Insane
Oleanda, you have admitted that more pressure needs to be applied to get a response when a horse is wearing just a headstall as opposed to a bitted bridle.

MORE pressure. So assuming that is similar when comparing bridles, wouldn't the one that uses LESS pressure to get the required response be better for the horse...i.e bitted bridle??


IF YOU WANT SOMETHING DONE, DO IT YOURSELF.
Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679264 is a reply to message #2679250 ] Mon, 18 June 2012 09:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  oleanda  
Messages: 118
Registered: May 2010
Level 3
artepko wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 09:35

Oleanda, you have admitted that more pressure needs to be applied to get a response when a horse is wearing just a headstall as opposed to a bitted bridle.

MORE pressure. So assuming that is similar when comparing bridles, wouldn't the one that uses LESS pressure to get the required response be better for the horse...i.e bitted bridle??



No wrong.I was pointing out in answer to a question regarding rough hands that a headcollar is kinder than a bit when used roughly. A horse correctly trained in a bitted bridle can work of the slightest pressure.

A correctly trained horse should be light in a headcollar as well.

[Updated on: Mon, 18 June 2012 10:36]

Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679285 is a reply to message #2679233 ] Mon, 18 June 2012 10:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  oleanda  
Messages: 118
Registered: May 2010
Level 3
[quote title=oleanda wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 09:19]
Equivarna wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 06:12

oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 23:07

Equivarna wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 21:47

oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 18:09

Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:56

oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:44

Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:34

oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:24


I've also searched to see if there are any peer reviewed scientific studies showing that a bit is good for a horse - Cant find any. If you know of one I'd like to read it.

And I'm willing to bet that there are no studies out there that have proved sitting on a horses back and riding it is good for it either, yet you still ride I'm assuming?


There have actually and sitting on a horses back is not ideal.BUT look how saddle fitting has become such an issue. Long gone are the days when you go to a saddlery store,sit in a saddle and if it suits you you buy it. No thought about whether its suitable for the horse. These days we've moved past that and go to every effort to ensure our horses have suitable saddles. Then there are the chiro's, therapists, massagers, acupuncturists and all the rest that are used to ensure horses are pain free. So why are bits different. Is not the horses mouth a sensitive area. Should it not be pain free as well. Its simple really.


I don't think you can really compare the two. Of course you want the horses back to be pain free, but the saddle and girth are not used as motivators the same way as a bit is. As you would realise, when we train horses to obey our aids we are using negative reinforcement. If a horse really wants to do the opposite of what we are asking, sometimes we have to use strong pressure to the point of causing pain to get our point across. I'm not just talking about bits here, we are kidding ourselves if we believe that bitless bridles and halters don't cause pain at times, that's why rope halters are more effective than wide nylon headstalls. I would think the bigger issue here is not the bit in the horses mouth, but using excessive tension on the reins for extended periods of time.


Please someone save me from so much ignorance. Why the hell do you think its ok to cause a horse pain so you can ride it. With knowledge and understanding horses are trained without pain. Sounds like your fairly young, Emma. I can only hope that you will look logically at all the info on issues with bits and think for yourself as to how you can avoid pain in your relationship with your horse. Your horse will thank you and you will have a much better partnership.


Couple of questions if I might;

Perhaps you might like to explain how your bitless bridle, which applies pressure at a number of sensitive points, is such an improvement in poorly trained hands over a bitted bridle?

Are there any studies determining nerve response in the differing areas of pressure? i.e. is there any substantiated evidence to support your theory that the bars of the mouth for example are more or less sensitive than the poll or sinus cavities?

Are there any studies showing accurately measured applicaton of pressure at all contact points for both types of bridles?


One of the links I posted earlier cites pressure.

But you know you dont need studies. You can easily do your own "study'. Put a headcollar on your horse and yank - then put a bit in your horses mouth and yank. Let the horse tell you which one is worse.

Bittless bridles do not interfere with breathing or swallowing

There are several types of bitless bridles. Some far better than others. Rough hands are rough on the horse no matter what but bitless bridles do not have the ability to do the damage a bit does. Certainly a hackamore is far from ideal and I dont like and would never use. Bosals with rigid hosebands are also no good.I dont even like knotted head collars as the knots rest on sensitive nerves. The simple cross under or straight side pull are generally preferred.

How do you handle your horse in a headcollar compared to a bridle. Do you use the same pressure or are you more sensitive with a bit. If you treat the bit more sensitively then I dont need to say anymore. You can exert more force on a headcollar without doing the damage you would if you used the same force on a bit.






Don't need studies? You're the one citing studies as proving x, y and z against bits. All worthless unless you prove conclusively that bitless is significantly better and under what circumstances, and I'm talking your vaunted bitless bridles, not a headcollar.

Bitless bridles can apply significant pressure on sensitive parts of the head, even in gentle hands. They do not operate on a system of cloud kisses and feather strokes. What I'm asking, is show us the proof that it is less damaging and less painful in both the long and short term, than a bit, rather than expecting us to blindly swallow the evangelistic rantings of a poisonous tree.

Many years ago doctors believed that expectant Mums and their unborn child would be better off without morning sickness. Thalidomide is just one the solutions to that problem.
[/quote


You're right there. Its been believed for years that bits are ok but now its been shown that there are not.

The "proof" is in the reactions of the horse and the many studies that have been done. Did you look at the links I posted particularly the xrays of what a bit does when used harshly. You only need your own eyes to see that one but maybe your not capable of comprehending what you see. I suppose you looked at all the scientific studies done on how good bits are for a horse before you put one in your horses mouth. Impossible because there aren't any such studies.



Oh Equivarna, you dont even seem to know that a headcollar can put pressure on the head. They put pressure on the poll or the nose or the side of the face, same as bitless bridles. Absolutely basic. No wonder you cant grasp anything more involved. Did you have to have scientific studies done to prove to you that you can use a headcollar without causing your horse harm. Your reasoning is flawed.

I dont think I'll bother with you anymore. Your too ignorant and obviously want to stay that way.


[Updated on: Mon, 18 June 2012 10:41]

Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679661 is a reply to message #2678844 ] Mon, 18 June 2012 15:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  susieq  
Messages: 3194
Registered: October 2010
Location: HRTAV
Troppo. Loco. Round the twist.
RhemyElla wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 18:05

Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 17:29

gdocker wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 17:21

Fully accepting that I know very little about western riding and especially western bitting, I do have a question and do not at all mean to start any arguments.

When would a bit like the one above (the big scary-looking spade bit, I mean, not the OP's) be necessary?

I mean, if someone is skilled enough to be popping that in their pony's mouth, then surely they'd be skilled enough with a lesser bit, or be using the rein so rarely that they probably don't need a bit?



The idea of a spade bit is that, if it's well made and properly balanced, it does a lot of the work for you. The spade on the top of the mouthpiece lays along the palate of the horse and when the horses head is vertical it exerts no pressure. When the horse raises it's head the spade comes into contact with the palate which encourages the horse to drop it's head. So in essence the bit exerts no pressure when the horse is in the correct carriage, encouraging the horse to stay there (negative reinforcement).

Can you tell me what the copper coil-like things are for? Thanks so much Smile Smile Smile

RE, they are all so wrapped up in their who's right and who's wrong to answer your question. I TO WANNA KNOW what are the copper coils for??????????


I can pick em but I can't ride em
Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679666 is a reply to message #2676721 ] Mon, 18 June 2012 15:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Groucho  
Messages: 21514
Registered: September 2008
The forum drove me to drink. Remind me to thank it.
Copper rollers in the OP's bit you mean?

Increased saliva production

A difference in metal and the ability to "roll" with increase saliva production in the horses mouth...the roll action can also act as a pacifier for green/young/nervous horses

[Updated on: Mon, 18 June 2012 15:49]

Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679672 is a reply to message #2679661 ] Mon, 18 June 2012 15:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Emma  
Messages: 9234
Registered: October 2005
Location: Yarrawonga
Its my party and I'll hoo haa if I want to

susieq wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 15:45

RhemyElla wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 18:05

Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 17:29

gdocker wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 17:21

Fully accepting that I know very little about western riding and especially western bitting, I do have a question and do not at all mean to start any arguments.

When would a bit like the one above (the big scary-looking spade bit, I mean, not the OP's) be necessary?

I mean, if someone is skilled enough to be popping that in their pony's mouth, then surely they'd be skilled enough with a lesser bit, or be using the rein so rarely that they probably don't need a bit?



The idea of a spade bit is that, if it's well made and properly balanced, it does a lot of the work for you. The spade on the top of the mouthpiece lays along the palate of the horse and when the horses head is vertical it exerts no pressure. When the horse raises it's head the spade comes into contact with the palate which encourages the horse to drop it's head. So in essence the bit exerts no pressure when the horse is in the correct carriage, encouraging the horse to stay there (negative reinforcement).

Can you tell me what the copper coil-like things are for? Thanks so much Smile Smile Smile

RE, they are all so wrapped up in their who's right and who's wrong to answer your question. I TO WANNA KNOW what are the copper coils for??????????

Sorry I missed this post. The copper wrapped bars are called spacer bars, and I'm assuming they are wrapped in copper for the same reason other bits are made from copper, to encourage salivation.


Toot toot chugga chugga big red car...
Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679689 is a reply to message #2679666 ] Mon, 18 June 2012 16:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  RhemyElla  is currently offline RhemyElla  
Messages: 12726
Registered: March 2008
The forum drove me to drink. Remind me to thank it.
Groucho wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 15:48

Copper rollers in the OP's bit you mean?

Increased saliva production

A difference in metal and the ability to "roll" with increase saliva production in the horses mouth...the roll action can also act as a pacifier for green/young/nervous horses

I was meaning the spade bit, sorry I didn't explain that properly.... See the copper coils? Wouldn't they pinch the horses mouth?

Susieq, I think things have certainly gone a little crazy in this post! Surprised I just can't fathom how a spade bit could be comfortable - I know I sure as heck wouldn't like it in my mouth! lol Smile

ETA - thanks Emma, just saw your explanation Smile Smile Smile

[Updated on: Mon, 18 June 2012 16:40]

Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679712 is a reply to message #2679689 ] Mon, 18 June 2012 17:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  artepko  
Messages: 1686
Registered: June 2010
Completely Insane
RE they are sway braces, they swivel and are for left and right signals. They sit on the tongue and in no way pinch the horse.


IF YOU WANT SOMETHING DONE, DO IT YOURSELF.
Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679714 is a reply to message #2679689 ] Mon, 18 June 2012 17:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  artepko  
Messages: 1686
Registered: June 2010
Completely Insane
double post oops

[Updated on: Mon, 18 June 2012 17:02]


IF YOU WANT SOMETHING DONE, DO IT YOURSELF.
Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679717 is a reply to message #2679714 ] Mon, 18 June 2012 17:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Bats79  is currently offline Bats79  
Messages: 7457
Registered: June 2007
This computer will self destruct in 10 posts
They are a "more recent" addition to the spade bit which actually increases the horse's lateral feel.

The rider can't make them press anywhere on the horse because they are positioned between the bit and the spade.

Or what artepko says. Smile


http://www.vgp.com.au/Writing-paper.jpg

Brokeford Holsteiners website - photos and videos http://www.brokeford.com.au
Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679788 is a reply to message #2679689 ] Mon, 18 June 2012 17:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Groucho  
Messages: 21514
Registered: September 2008
The forum drove me to drink. Remind me to thank it.
RhemyElla wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 16:29

Groucho wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 15:48

Copper rollers in the OP's bit you mean?

Increased saliva production

A difference in metal and the ability to "roll" with increase saliva production in the horses mouth...the roll action can also act as a pacifier for green/young/nervous horses

I was meaning the spade bit, sorry I didn't explain that properly.... See the copper coils? Wouldn't they pinch the horses mouth?

Susieq, I think things have certainly gone a little crazy in this post! Surprised I just can't fathom how a spade bit could be comfortable - I know I sure as heck wouldn't like it in my mouth! lol Smile

ETA - thanks Emma, just saw your explanation Smile Smile Smile



Oopsies my bad Embarassed

I have reading related Dementia lately Embarassed
Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679812 is a reply to message #2679788 ] Mon, 18 June 2012 18:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  FULLTHROTTLEDASH  
Messages: 2039
Registered: May 2010
Stark, Raving Bonkers
Obviously going by this video and as anyone with a brain could comprehend bitless bridles also cause pain. They can create just as much resistance as the bit, in particular when the horse is first learning to find the release from the pain and pressure exerted on the nasal bones and poll as well as the pinching of the chhecks against the molars and under the sensitive chin groove.
So oleander fark off with your horse****!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkaNr4MRZBc&feature=relat ed

[Updated on: Mon, 18 June 2012 18:43]

Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679837 is a reply to message #2679812 ] Mon, 18 June 2012 18:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Groucho  
Messages: 21514
Registered: September 2008
The forum drove me to drink. Remind me to thank it.
FULLTHROTTLEDASH wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 18:10

Obviously going by this video and as anyone with a brain could comprehend bitless bridles also cause pain. They can create just as much resistance as the bit, in particular when the horse is first learning to find the release from the pain and pressure exerted on the nasal bones and poll as well as the piching of the chhecks against the molars.
So oleander fark off with your horse****!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkaNr4MRZBc&feature=relat ed


Firstly what an asshat of a horse Rolls Eyes Laughing

Secondly good video...to my mind the horse was far more agitated, and even more of an asshat in the bitless

Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679860 is a reply to message #2679837 ] Mon, 18 June 2012 18:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  FULLTHROTTLEDASH  
Messages: 2039
Registered: May 2010
Stark, Raving Bonkers
Groucho wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 18:26

FULLTHROTTLEDASH wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 18:10

Obviously going by this video and as anyone with a brain could comprehend bitless bridles also cause pain. They can create just as much resistance as the bit, in particular when the horse is first learning to find the release from the pain and pressure exerted on the nasal bones and poll as well as the piching of the chhecks against the molars.
So oleander fark off with your horse****!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkaNr4MRZBc&feature=relat ed


Firstly what an asshat of a horse Rolls Eyes Laughing

Secondly good video...to my mind the horse was far more agitated, and even more of an asshat in the bitless



Yes i agree he was far worse in the bitless bridle.
Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679899 is a reply to message #2679860 ] Mon, 18 June 2012 19:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Bats79  is currently offline Bats79  
Messages: 7457
Registered: June 2007
This computer will self destruct in 10 posts
Not an inspiring video when it comes to bitless.

I've yet to have a horse work better in one, though a forumite on here has had good experiences with a horse that could actually damage his own mouth.

But still - there are usually issues with the rider if there are issues with the bit.


http://www.vgp.com.au/Writing-paper.jpg

Brokeford Holsteiners website - photos and videos http://www.brokeford.com.au
Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2679929 is a reply to message #2679233 ] Mon, 18 June 2012 19:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  Equivarna  
Messages: 12879
Registered: November 2006
Location: Misogynists incorporated
The forum drove me to drink. Remind me to thank it.
[quote title=oleanda wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 09:19]
Equivarna wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 06:12

oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 23:07

Equivarna wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 21:47

oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 18:09

Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:56

oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:44

Emma wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:34

oleanda wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 16:24


I've also searched to see if there are any peer reviewed scientific studies showing that a bit is good for a horse - Cant find any. If you know of one I'd like to read it.

And I'm willing to bet that there are no studies out there that have proved sitting on a horses back and riding it is good for it either, yet you still ride I'm assuming?


There have actually and sitting on a horses back is not ideal.BUT look how saddle fitting has become such an issue. Long gone are the days when you go to a saddlery store,sit in a saddle and if it suits you you buy it. No thought about whether its suitable for the horse. These days we've moved past that and go to every effort to ensure our horses have suitable saddles. Then there are the chiro's, therapists, massagers, acupuncturists and all the rest that are used to ensure horses are pain free. So why are bits different. Is not the horses mouth a sensitive area. Should it not be pain free as well. Its simple really.


I don't think you can really compare the two. Of course you want the horses back to be pain free, but the saddle and girth are not used as motivators the same way as a bit is. As you would realise, when we train horses to obey our aids we are using negative reinforcement. If a horse really wants to do the opposite of what we are asking, sometimes we have to use strong pressure to the point of causing pain to get our point across. I'm not just talking about bits here, we are kidding ourselves if we believe that bitless bridles and halters don't cause pain at times, that's why rope halters are more effective than wide nylon headstalls. I would think the bigger issue here is not the bit in the horses mouth, but using excessive tension on the reins for extended periods of time.


Please someone save me from so much ignorance. Why the hell do you think its ok to cause a horse pain so you can ride it. With knowledge and understanding horses are trained without pain. Sounds like your fairly young, Emma. I can only hope that you will look logically at all the info on issues with bits and think for yourself as to how you can avoid pain in your relationship with your horse. Your horse will thank you and you will have a much better partnership.


Couple of questions if I might;

Perhaps you might like to explain how your bitless bridle, which applies pressure at a number of sensitive points, is such an improvement in poorly trained hands over a bitted bridle?

Are there any studies determining nerve response in the differing areas of pressure? i.e. is there any substantiated evidence to support your theory that the bars of the mouth for example are more or less sensitive than the poll or sinus cavities?

Are there any studies showing accurately measured applicaton of pressure at all contact points for both types of bridles?


One of the links I posted earlier cites pressure.

But you know you dont need studies. You can easily do your own "study'. Put a headcollar on your horse and yank - then put a bit in your horses mouth and yank. Let the horse tell you which one is worse.

Bittless bridles do not interfere with breathing or swallowing

There are several types of bitless bridles. Some far better than others. Rough hands are rough on the horse no matter what but bitless bridles do not have the ability to do the damage a bit does. Certainly a hackamore is far from ideal and I dont like and would never use. Bosals with rigid hosebands are also no good.I dont even like knotted head collars as the knots rest on sensitive nerves. The simple cross under or straight side pull are generally preferred.

How do you handle your horse in a headcollar compared to a bridle. Do you use the same pressure or are you more sensitive with a bit. If you treat the bit more sensitively then I dont need to say anymore. You can exert more force on a headcollar without doing the damage you would if you used the same force on a bit.






Don't need studies? You're the one citing studies as proving x, y and z against bits. All worthless unless you prove conclusively that bitless is significantly better and under what circumstances, and I'm talking your vaunted bitless bridles, not a headcollar.

Bitless bridles can apply significant pressure on sensitive parts of the head, even in gentle hands. They do not operate on a system of cloud kisses and feather strokes. What I'm asking, is show us the proof that it is less damaging and less painful in both the long and short term, than a bit, rather than expecting us to blindly swallow the evangelistic rantings of a poisonous tree.

Many years ago doctors believed that expectant Mums and their unborn child would be better off without morning sickness. Thalidomide is just one the solutions to that problem.
[/quote


You're right there. Its been believed for years that bits are ok but now its been shown that there are not.

The "proof" is in the reactions of the horse and the many studies that have been done. You simply choose not to believe any of them. More the fool you. I suppose you looked at all the scientific studies done on how good bits are for a horse before you put one in your horses mouth. Impossible because there aren't any such studies.






Why would you assume that a/ I'm an unbeliever and b/ a fool. I may actually be on your side. All I have asked for is proof that a bitless bridle isn't as bad or worse than a bit, rather than supposition?


If a man says something in the forest, and no woman is there to hear him; is he still wrong?
Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2680273 is a reply to message #2679860 ] Tue, 19 June 2012 08:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  oleanda  
Messages: 118
Registered: May 2010
Level 3
[quote title=FULLTHROTTLEDASH wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 18:42]
Groucho wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 18:26

FULLTHROTTLEDASH wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 18:10

Obviously going by this video and as anyone with a brain could comprehend bitless bridles also cause pain. They can create just as much resistance as the bit, in particular when the horse is first learning to find the release from the pain and pressure exerted on the nasal bones and poll as well as the piching of the chhecks against the molars.
So oleander fark off with your horse****!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkaNr4MRZBc&feature=relat ed


Firstly what an asshat of a horse Rolls Eyes Laughing

Secondly good video...to my mind the horse was far more agitated, and even more of an asshat in the bitless




Hi you two, your back. Thought you had me on ignore. You sure are showing you ignorance. This horse has many problems, one of them being the rider. No way on that particular horse would you just put a bitless bridle on and away you go. Thats not going to fix the problems. Same as you wouldn't just put a bit in for the first time and ride like that. Many horse can simply switch from bit to bitless but as in everything with horses its reliant on the correct training and knowledge and experience of the trainer / rider.

The horse is not an ass as you put it. That poor horse has been "made" like that through improper treatment / gear / training /riding. It has major head issues on the ground and under saddle. Both the instructor and rider dont have much idea of what they're doing.So your right it is actually a good video showing a horse with problems and that there is no quick fix.





Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2680319 is a reply to message #2680273 ] Tue, 19 June 2012 09:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
  artepko  
Messages: 1686
Registered: June 2010
Completely Insane
I tend to agree with you Oleanda in regards to the video...You can't just put a bitless bridle on a horse and expect the horse to understand what you want from it. (Particularly one like in the video that already has issues).

They are stopping the horse in the exact same spot every time too, and basically all look like amateurs.


IF YOU WANT SOMETHING DONE, DO IT YOURSELF.
Re: Can anyone tell me what type of bit this is? [message #2692138 is a reply to message #2676721 ] Wed, 04 July 2012 07:19 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
  Melzie  
Messages: 1115
Registered: November 2006
Level 1 - Advanced
Back to the original post.... Thankyou joey for the bit, it is a great addition to my collection! (and highly sort after, Ive already had 2 offers to buy it but its not going anywhere!)
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