Home » Vichorse Forum » General - On Topic » Stallions - are they an investment or is it for love?
| Stallions - are they an investment or is it for love? [message #2679241] |
Mon, 18 June 2012 09:27  |
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Part of my planning the next member of my horsey family I've looked at a LOT of options.
One of those was to go friesian colt/stallion with the hope to offset some of the price with stud fees.
I've also noted a few warmblood stallion sale prices recently and have come to the conclusion that an unproven (as in not competed under saddle at any great level) seems to sell for 15-20x the stud fee.
How many mares do stallions get each season? I know this is completely subjective to bloodlines etc but looking through the HorseDeals Stallion guide are owners expecting to get 10 mares or more a season?
Any thoughts on this?
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| Re: Stallions - are they an investment or is it for love? [message #2679279 is a reply to message #2679241 ] |
Mon, 18 June 2012 09:59  |
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 RFST
Messages: 687
Registered: March 2009 |
Level 1 - Advanced |
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I have several stallions and to be honest, standing stallions at public stud is not worth the hassle. My stallions are only available by AI as I don't have the facilities for outside mares and don't want the nightmare involved with them (insurances, dealing with paronoid mare owners, feral mares etc etc). There is very little profit in it once you factor in your time and loss of other sources of income due to organising collections etc. All my stallions are imported and include National Champions and I get very, very few enquiries for services. Their stud fees are set at the normal level for their respective breeds.
My stud is run as a business with everything that entails. There is much more genuine profit in selling a stallion's offspring you have bred yourself. Never assume you will get sufficient outside services to generate enough real profit to cover your stallion's yearly upkeep (let alone contribute to all the other outgoings a stud has eg insurances, mortgages, wages, workers comp, super etc, etc, etc). You won't.
Have a chat with your accountant. That will give you a much more grounded idea of where you stand.
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| Re: Stallions - are they an investment or is it for love? [message #2679338 is a reply to message #2679318 ] |
Mon, 18 June 2012 10:48 |
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Unless your advertising budget is as big as your purchase budget then, like RFST says, you won't make a profit (or offset purchase cost) against stud fees for a long time. Then you also have the costs of collection and distribution of semen, or keeping and managing outside mares.
It's all about budget and promotion. The only way any of our stallions do, or will, pay for themselves is by sale of offspring. If your stallion is good enough to stand at stud then you should be willing to breed to it yourself. But then you have the cost of keeping mares and foals all the way to sale time.
The other option that takes some of the costs away is to freeze a lot of semen and sell it at significantly less than a normal stud fee so that people are prepared to take the risk of using it.
If you want to keep a stallion - do it for love and if you make some money down the track then be happy for it. That's my motto anyway.
RFST - don't make me growl at you. Every warmblood that comes from European lines is a breed. In some cases they are diluted but they are not TYPES. You can't get a horse into a studbook just because it is the right type - it has to have the bloodlines too.
All horses are the same species, classifying them into "breeds" is purely a control measure for studbook recording (and power). The fact that you can breed a pony to a racehorse because they are genetically almost identical tells you how much "breed" and "type" are still very close within the equine species.
[Updated on: Mon, 18 June 2012 10:51]
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| Re: Stallions - are they an investment or is it for love? [message #2679351 is a reply to message #2679318 ] |
Mon, 18 June 2012 10:58 |
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For the love ....(unless your looking at a topline racing TB or selling frozen semen to a WB to get the type of book that you call good ...)
I'm having a hard pressed time trying to think of any stud that would get between 20-40 mares per stallion that is outside of the racing industry? Can anyone else thing of one?
In Europe (as far as I am aware) Gelding is not as common practice as it is over here.
www.carlukecollies.com.au
www.carlukearabians.com
Yes, i know that i can't spell ....
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| Re: Stallions - are they an investment or is it for love? [message #2679358 is a reply to message #2679337 ] |
Mon, 18 June 2012 11:02 |
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| RFST wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 10:47 |
| HeidiGA wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 10:31 |
Thanks guys - very interesting reading. 
It does make me wonder about the viability of stallions - especially when there is frozen semen around. Especially those stallions sold with the old owner retaining frozen semen that could number in the 100's of straws.
I'm thinking some of the top horses get a good book of mares (thinking 20-40?).
I was quite surprised when looking overseas (dreaming) that there are competition stallions at quite a high level that aren't used for breeding.
Keep the thoughts coming!
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Competition results aren't the be all and end all when choosing stallions to breed to. Just because a stallion has done well in competitions doesn't mean it has excellent conformation or a good temperament. Even for WBs, that are a type, not a breed, there are still generic conformation faults that apply to all horses.
I breed horses that are "breeds" as opposed to "types" so for me, breed type with conformation and temperament correct for their particular breed comes top of the list when choosing stallions. A stallion that has competed at a high level can be more an indication that it has a competitive owner. Don't dismiss a better conformed and temperamented stallion just because its owner isn't very competitive or doesn't have the money/isn't interested in paying someone else to ride it.
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True, results aren't everything, but with the number of stallions around I think a stallion should have distinguished himself in some way. Only time I'll use an outside stallion is if he has everything, and that includes show results.
"There is just as much horse sense as ever, but the horses have most of it."
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| Re: Stallions - are they an investment or is it for love? [message #2679378 is a reply to message #2679241 ] |
Mon, 18 June 2012 11:16 |
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jumping for joy
Messages: 1319
Registered: October 2005 |
Completely Insane |
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I grew up on a stud with several imported stallions which were well performed in the UK and proven sires of leading stock over there.
I have to agree with the comments about the visiting mares.
Some clients were easy to deal with and horses well handled and the clients had an understanding about breeding.
other clients would send unhandled mares and expected us to be able to hand service the mare even when the mare was so unhandled they were scared to be caught or have general handling.
Some clients did not understand the vet costs invloved and that some mares were not easy to get in foal. There expectations often not realistic and thier frustration taken out on us.
You have to think about if it really is worth while?
Over 30 plus years there were 2 visiting mares that died, one got kicked in the broodmare paddock and broke her leg and another one got very sick , reason never found but it was terrible, the whole family worked tirelessly around the clock on shifts with her on a drip, the horse was just so sick and the owners would not put her to sleep but they did not come to visit her either to see the state she was in. The vet kept asking them for permission to put her down , anyway she did eventually not make it and we were all in tears. I am sure the owners were very upset too but the pain the mare went through was just awful. I think she lasted a week on the drip with us all taking 4 hour shifts each around the clock( that was over 20 plus years ago & I think the vet entually put her down on the grounds she was not going to make it and the pain she was in it was a very long time ago)
So you have to think about what would happen if a visiting mare did die as it does occassionally happens and who is responsible for the mare ie have insurance or contract.
out of about 9 stallions my family stood over the years, all but one stallion was easy to put over the mares. One was a real handful.
I think the person saying AI is the way to go for stallion owners might be best is right too. Less risk to mare, stallions, handlers, no crazy clients to deal with - poor Mr vet gets to deal with that.
[Updated on: Mon, 18 June 2012 11:22]
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| Re: Stallions - are they an investment or is it for love? [message #2679379 is a reply to message #2679370 ] |
Mon, 18 June 2012 11:16 |
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| MonicaM84 wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 11:10 |
You really have to weigh things up very closely.
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Not only the costs but the practical side. I love living and working with stallions so I don't mind the extra fuss, but once the first stallion arrived there was no way I was running agistment on the same property like what we had originally planned. Every time I rotate paddocks around the first question is always where the boys will be. I'll be getting some new paddocks fenced off so the boys can always be double fenced away from boundry lines and mare paddocks so that's added cost.
I wouldn't be without my boys but I know plenty of people who would say they "put up with" their stallions.
"There is just as much horse sense as ever, but the horses have most of it."
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| Re: Stallions - are they an investment or is it for love? [message #2679382 is a reply to message #2679370 ] |
Mon, 18 June 2012 11:18 |
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| MonicaM84 wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 11:10 |
This is the debate I'm having with myself at the moment.
I would love to get a stallion, however it would have to tick the many boxes I have and not many would.
At the moment I enjoy being able to pick and choose between many great stallions that are available.
What is swaying me towards my own stallion is the costs involved with AI frozen, which is mainly the high end stallions that I'm only interested in. With my own stallion I would at least be able to live cover my girls. So I would be happy to have no outside mares but then I would like to think that the type of stallion I would own would be popular to cross with also TBs & stock horses. (Looking for a QH stallion).
You really have to weigh things up very closely.
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and I think thats the reason you will find that there are soo many stallions held by little studs that no longer send many mares out regulary.
www.carlukecollies.com.au
www.carlukearabians.com
Yes, i know that i can't spell ....
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| Re: Stallions - are they an investment or is it for love? [message #2679499 is a reply to message #2679279 ] |
Mon, 18 June 2012 13:02 |
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| RFST wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 19:59 |
I have several stallions and to be honest, standing stallions at public stud is not worth the hassle. My stallions are only available by AI as I don't have the facilities for outside mares and don't want the nightmare involved with them (insurances, dealing with paronoid mare owners, feral mares etc etc). There is very little profit in it once you factor in your time and loss of other sources of income due to organising collections etc. All my stallions are imported and include National Champions and I get very, very few enquiries for services. Their stud fees are set at the normal level for their respective breeds.
My stud is run as a business with everything that entails. There is much more genuine profit in selling a stallion's offspring you have bred yourself. Never assume you will get sufficient outside services to generate enough real profit to cover your stallion's yearly upkeep (let alone contribute to all the other outgoings a stud has eg insurances, mortgages, wages, workers comp, super etc, etc, etc). You won't.
Have a chat with your accountant. That will give you a much more grounded idea of where you stand.
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so true. we have a stallion who we will stand via AI sometime in the future, but theres no way mares will be coming onto the place, just not worth the hassle.
If you can't tell sh!t from clay, don't take up sculpting.
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| Re: Stallions - are they an investment or is it for love? [message #2679513 is a reply to message #2679241 ] |
Mon, 18 June 2012 13:25 |
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Besides all the financial reasons that people have put forward there is also the general "hassle" of stallions. They often need different fencing and are generally kept away from other horses and obviously mares. This makes paddock rotations a big hassle. Also they are a bit of a worry if there are other people coming onto the property. Don't want people thinking lets pat the nice horsey and getting injuries. If you have any staff/grooms on the property they need to be educated on the correct handling of a stallion.
Also many people forget that they need to be used regularly. Covering one or two mares a season really doesnt cut it. And infrequent use can lead to poor semen quality, as well as a host of behavioural problems because they are bored ( unless of course they are being regularly ridden or exercised to keep them fit and active).
Getting into stallions is a big step and you want to make sure that you are physically (as in the facilities) and financially set up for it.
Horses, horses, horses!
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| Re: Stallions - are they an investment or is it for love? [message #2679555 is a reply to message #2679241 ] |
Mon, 18 June 2012 13:53 |
foxleigh
Messages: 12
Registered: May 2010 |
Level 5 |
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Love for sure - I adore my stallion but I bought him for me we do advertise him and AI to limited outside mares but this is because I think it would be waste to have imported such a lovely boy who is the only WB of his size and breeding in Australia and not allow people access to him. Plus I just love the idea of his babies being out there. If people think it is for the money they are insane ; ).
But at least a stallion can bring in some income and be a great competition horse as well as save you the cost of service fees.
[Updated on: Mon, 18 June 2012 14:42]
Slave of Lord Deniro (Imp) and his harem 😜
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| Re: Stallions - are they an investment or is it for love? [message #2679928 is a reply to message #2679513 ] |
Mon, 18 June 2012 19:56 |
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| gojumpingxx wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 23:25 |
Besides all the financial reasons that people have put forward there is also the general "hassle" of stallions. They often need different fencing and are generally kept away from other horses and obviously mares. This makes paddock rotations a big hassle. Also they are a bit of a worry if there are other people coming onto the property. Don't want people thinking lets pat the nice horsey and getting injuries. If you have any staff/grooms on the property they need to be educated on the correct handling of a stallion.
Also many people forget that they need to be used regularly. Covering one or two mares a season really doesnt cut it. And infrequent use can lead to poor semen quality, as well as a host of behavioural problems because they are bored ( unless of course they are being regularly ridden or exercised to keep them fit and active).
Getting into stallions is a big step and you want to make sure that you are physically (as in the facilities) and financially set up for it.
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slightly off topic, but it really sh!ts me the way some people allow bad behaviour in a stallion, because he is a stallion.
in my opinion it is even more important for a stallion to have excellent manners.
people are always shocked when they are told that our boy is a stallion (they even often bend down and check  ). he is paddocked with other horses, shares fences with other horses, floats with other horses with no head divider, rides out with other horses including our daughter and son on their ponies (mares and geldings), and gets dragged around the shows where he gets to put up with oblivious people shoving their mares bums in his face. the most badly behaved he gets is a bit of a squeal when the last one happens sometimes. although he did dump me at canberra when he buzzed out at the trotters, but he wasn't alone in buzzing out at them, so i'll allow that to some extent.
a horse is a horse, and no amount of testosterone makes bad manners acceptable at our place, the same is expected of the stallion and the kids ponies.
If you can't tell sh!t from clay, don't take up sculpting.
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| Re: Stallions - are they an investment or is it for love? [message #2680147 is a reply to message #2679241 ] |
Tue, 19 June 2012 01:04 |
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I agree with you there Bats....my stallions have company either side of them, have plenty of stimulation around them but only covers a few mares each year, have no semen quality issues and have no behavioural issues at all....my warmblood is also not broken in due to an injury and doesn't stand to outside horses....it is definately for love and it is definately worth it....but I would only ever have another stallion if it was as good as the two I have now....otherwise it is not worth it
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| Re: Stallions - are they an investment or is it for love? [message #2680250 is a reply to message #2680141 ] |
Tue, 19 June 2012 08:37 |
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| Bats79 wrote on Tue, 19 June 2012 00:21 |
| gojumpingxx wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 13:25 |
Also many people forget that they need to be used regularly. Covering one or two mares a season really doesnt cut it. And infrequent use can lead to poor semen quality, as well as a host of behavioural problems because they are bored ( unless of course they are being regularly ridden or exercised to keep them fit and active).
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I'd like to read some proof of that. I have a stallion that is lucky to serve two mares a year - they get in foal from the first service each time. He lives in a paddock and has no behaviour problems.
We also used some young stallions this past year that had never served before. Each one got their first mare in foal and then went back into the paddock with the other boys. I doubt very much that their semen quality will be reduced.
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It's not always reduced and I didn't say that it wouldnt get mares in foal, particularly if you are doing live cover not AI. A lot will depend on how regularly the stallions masturbates, if he does so regularly then "fresh" sperm is travelling through the seminiferous tubules into the epididymis regularly. If the stallion doesn't masturbate much, then sperm may have been "waiting around" in the epididymis for a while which can lead to a higher proportion of abnormal sperm. Obviously the only way to know what's going on in your individual stallion is to check out a sample under a microscope. Which really should be done anyway as with live cover conditions like urospermia and haemospermia can be missed. Also poor sperm motility could indicate an underlying problem.
Horses, horses, horses!
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| Re: Stallions - are they an investment or is it for love? [message #2680303 is a reply to message #2679928 ] |
Tue, 19 June 2012 09:22 |
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| mouse82 wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 19:56 |
| gojumpingxx wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 23:25 |
Besides all the financial reasons that people have put forward there is also the general "hassle" of stallions. They often need different fencing and are generally kept away from other horses and obviously mares. This makes paddock rotations a big hassle. Also they are a bit of a worry if there are other people coming onto the property. Don't want people thinking lets pat the nice horsey and getting injuries. If you have any staff/grooms on the property they need to be educated on the correct handling of a stallion.
Also many people forget that they need to be used regularly. Covering one or two mares a season really doesnt cut it. And infrequent use can lead to poor semen quality, as well as a host of behavioural problems because they are bored ( unless of course they are being regularly ridden or exercised to keep them fit and active).
Getting into stallions is a big step and you want to make sure that you are physically (as in the facilities) and financially set up for it.
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slightly off topic, but it really sh!ts me the way some people allow bad behaviour in a stallion, because he is a stallion.
in my opinion it is even more important for a stallion to have excellent manners.
people are always shocked when they are told that our boy is a stallion (they even often bend down and check ). he is paddocked with other horses, shares fences with other horses, floats with other horses with no head divider, rides out with other horses including our daughter and son on their ponies (mares and geldings), and gets dragged around the shows where he gets to put up with oblivious people shoving their mares bums in his face. the most badly behaved he gets is a bit of a squeal when the last one happens sometimes. although he did dump me at canberra when he buzzed out at the trotters, but he wasn't alone in buzzing out at them, so i'll allow that to some extent.
a horse is a horse, and no amount of testosterone makes bad manners acceptable at our place, the same is expected of the stallion and the kids ponies.
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I'll agree with a lot of what mouse says. Only reason I suggest being particular with your fencing especially near neighbours is everything will always get blamed on the stallion
There is nothing to stop a stallion being involved in life and quite frankly I've found they adore attention more then my geldings or mares do. I think it is utter cruelty the way some just get shut off on their own until the owner has a use for them... and those are the owners that complain about mental stallions! Did they ever stop to wonder why? Anyone can touch my stallions safely, in fact the boys will probably be offended if I don't bring visitors over to them. The horse I trust the most on my property is Pallidon... a junior stallion
I just retired my younger stallion from the halter ring, he used to have on heat mares run up his backside, colts and other stallions stood up in his face... do you think he ever reacted?  I even had a judge duck under to make sure I wasn't lieing about him being a stallion.
Nothing beats a good stallion in my book
"There is just as much horse sense as ever, but the horses have most of it."
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| Re: Stallions - are they an investment or is it for love? [message #2680339 is a reply to message #2679241 ] |
Tue, 19 June 2012 10:02 |
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Regardless, I believe stallions are a labour of love.
I have one and I love him to bits. He is my pride and joy and he is sentimental to me because he is the only live foal from 3 births from his mother - the final foal resulted in her death. Don't get me wrong, if I thought for a minute he wasn't stallion material I'd have gelded him because (as I constantly remind him when he does something naughty) a good stallion will always make an even better gelding 
I only breed him to my own mares at this point but once he is out competing I will consider outside mares - however they will only be to live cover as I don't want the hassle of AI and they will be chosen to fit with him.
If you are having a stallion purely for commercial reasons, then sure, most of them don't vet and scrutinise the mares the stallion breeds to. If, like me, you only want your stallion to produce quality offspring, you become selective of the type of mare you let your stallion breed to. For example, my guy is short in stature (barely 15.2) but big in genetics and throws his genetic height into his offspring - no point in breeding him to a mare if someone wants a below 16hand result because it isn't going to happen. He also shouldn't be bred to mares with short backs as he couples them up and the resulting offspring would look silly.
Keeping a stallion is also not the easiest. You have to be aware that they generally have to be paddocked on their own and to save stress on yourself and your fences, it is also advised to NOT allow them access to mares over the fence - if my guy lives next to mares it is usually with a laneway between them, or I pick the ones that are in foal that I know won't go within a ten foot barge pole of him because of the electric fence - some mares won't care about electric.
If you choke a smurf, what colour does it turn?
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| Re: Stallions - are they an investment or is it for love? [message #2680596 is a reply to message #2680303 ] |
Tue, 19 June 2012 15:19 |
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Groucho
Messages: 17290
Registered: September 2008 |
The forum drove me to drink. Remind me to thank it. |
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| Wings wrote on Tue, 19 June 2012 09:22 |
| mouse82 wrote on Mon, 18 June 2012 19:56 |
| gojumpingxx wrote on Sun, 17 June 2012 23:25 |
Besides all the financial reasons that people have put forward there is also the general "hassle" of stallions. They often need different fencing and are generally kept away from other horses and obviously mares. This makes paddock rotations a big hassle. Also they are a bit of a worry if there are other people coming onto the property. Don't want people thinking lets pat the nice horsey and getting injuries. If you have any staff/grooms on the property they need to be educated on the correct handling of a stallion.
Also many people forget that they need to be used regularly. Covering one or two mares a season really doesnt cut it. And infrequent use can lead to poor semen quality, as well as a host of behavioural problems because they are bored ( unless of course they are being regularly ridden or exercised to keep them fit and active).
Getting into stallions is a big step and you want to make sure that you are physically (as in the facilities) and financially set up for it.
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slightly off topic, but it really sh!ts me the way some people allow bad behaviour in a stallion, because he is a stallion.
in my opinion it is even more important for a stallion to have excellent manners.
people are always shocked when they are told that our boy is a stallion (they even often bend down and check ). he is paddocked with other horses, shares fences with other horses, floats with other horses with no head divider, rides out with other horses including our daughter and son on their ponies (mares and geldings), and gets dragged around the shows where he gets to put up with oblivious people shoving their mares bums in his face. the most badly behaved he gets is a bit of a squeal when the last one happens sometimes. although he did dump me at canberra when he buzzed out at the trotters, but he wasn't alone in buzzing out at them, so i'll allow that to some extent.
a horse is a horse, and no amount of testosterone makes bad manners acceptable at our place, the same is expected of the stallion and the kids ponies.
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I'll agree with a lot of what mouse says. Only reason I suggest being particular with your fencing especially near neighbours is everything will always get blamed on the stallion
There is nothing to stop a stallion being involved in life and quite frankly I've found they adore attention more then my geldings or mares do. I think it is utter cruelty the way some just get shut off on their own until the owner has a use for them... and those are the owners that complain about mental stallions! Did they ever stop to wonder why? Anyone can touch my stallions safely, in fact the boys will probably be offended if I don't bring visitors over to them. The horse I trust the most on my property is Pallidon... a junior stallion
I just retired my younger stallion from the halter ring, he used to have on heat mares run up his backside, colts and other stallions stood up in his face... do you think he ever reacted? I even had a judge duck under to make sure I wasn't lieing about him being a stallion.
Nothing beats a good stallion in my book
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Yeah but you can pick yours up and carry them back to the float if they misbehave 
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yes but Groveborn won't accept 50cent per week repayments.... 
Good Luck
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